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Spyro Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:45am

Removal of Spectator
 
While working a freshman girls basketball game, a parent confronted my partner and I on the way back to our locker room at halftime. The parent yelled in my face "why don't you come back with some glasses?", so I told the man that he needed to leave. I notified the athletic director (younger guy in his first year as an AD) and made him aware of the situation, and I was under the impression that the athletic director was clear as to who was being removed. After halftime, I came out to find that the man was still in the bleachers. After conferring with the AD about what was going on, he told me that the man simply refused to leave. I told the AD that we were not going to play until the man left, and the AD didn't really know how to handle it. At that point, I sent both teams back to their benches and notified the visiting coach that if the parent did not leave, they would be forfeiting the game and we would be done. The coach talked to the parent and it was taken care of.

Now for my question. I know that this was not the 100% correct way to handle this, and ultimately the police should probably handle somebody who refuses to leave like that. Can a more experienced official walk me through how to handle a situation like this, and if there is a forfeit procedure involved at all? Thank you.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyro (Post 994244)
While working a freshman girls basketball game, a parent confronted my partner and I on the way back to our locker room at halftime. The parent yelled in my face "why don't you come back with some glasses?", so I told the man that he needed to leave. I notified the athletic director (younger guy in his first year as an AD) and made him aware of the situation, and I was under the impression that the athletic director was clear as to who was being removed. After halftime, I came out to find that the man was still in the bleachers. After conferring with the AD about what was going on, he told me that the man simply refused to leave. I told the AD that we were not going to play until the man left, and the AD didn't really know how to handle it. At that point, I sent both teams back to their benches and notified the visiting coach that if the parent did not leave, they would be forfeiting the game and we would be done. The coach talked to the parent and it was taken care of.

Now for my question. I know that this was not the 100% correct way to handle this, and ultimately the police should probably handle somebody who refuses to leave like that. Can a more experienced official walk me through how to handle a situation like this, and if there is a forfeit procedure involved at all? Thank you.

The AD needs to handle it entirely.

If you need to leave because the fan doesn't, then do so, but don't forfeit the game. Leave that decision to the powers-that-be.

SC Official Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyro (Post 994244)
While working a freshman girls basketball game, a parent confronted my partner and I on the way back to our locker room at halftime. The parent yelled in my face "why don't you come back with some glasses?", so I told the man that he needed to leave. I notified the athletic director (younger guy in his first year as an AD) and made him aware of the situation, and I was under the impression that the athletic director was clear as to who was being removed. After halftime, I came out to find that the man was still in the bleachers. After conferring with the AD about what was going on, he told me that the man simply refused to leave. I told the AD that we were not going to play until the man left, and the AD didn't really know how to handle it. At that point, I sent both teams back to their benches and notified the visiting coach that if the parent did not leave, they would be forfeiting the game and we would be done. The coach talked to the parent and it was taken care of.

Now for my question. I know that this was not the 100% correct way to handle this, and ultimately the police should probably handle somebody who refuses to leave like that. Can a more experienced official walk me through how to handle a situation like this, and if there is a forfeit procedure involved at all? Thank you.

In a scholastic game, you never declare a forfeit for a fan refusing to leave (in the absence of an otherwise stated policy from your state), so don't threaten a coach with a forfeit for spectator behavior. Worst case scenario (meaning you've exhausted every possible option), suspend the game and let your state handle it. But again, it should never get to that point and should be a "nuclear option."

The AD should have handled this, as you noted. But, since he didn't, I don't see anything wrong with what you did in asking the visiting coach to handle it (especially in a freshman game). A freshman game may or may not have police presence, so asking the coach to deal with it and making clear the game won't resume until the clown is gone is a perfectly acceptable way to deal with it IMO. In a varsity game, there should be security and more administrators present to deal with it, and the coaches don't want to get involved in that.

After the game, the most important thing is for you to immediately let your assigner or state association (depending on the policies in your area) know the situation and that the AD did not do his job.

Adam Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:07pm

Advise the AD that he can get the police involved if he needs to, but that he is ultimately responsible for getting the fan out of the facility. No need to threaten the visitors, just don't start the game until it's resolved.

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 06, 2016 01:29pm

For those of you who remember "Davisms". He told me once he had a spectator who was way out of line at a boys JV game. He went over with the AD to tell the guy to knock it off. The guy asked them what they were going to do about it if he didn't change his behavior. Dave told him, "We'll take your debit card and PIN number."

Nevadaref Tue Dec 06, 2016 04:17pm

I believe that you handled it extremely well.

I disagree with the posters who have stated not to forfeit the game because of the poor spectator behavior. The rules state that the officials may assess technical fouls to either team for spectator behavior and that the R has the power to forfeit the game when conditions warrant.

And for those wondering, yes, I would have charged a team technical foul to the visiting team for this fan's unacceptable behavior.

JRutledge Tue Dec 06, 2016 05:03pm

I would just have the individual removed. No need to do more than that at that point of the contest. Be strong with the AD and tell them they need to remove the individual or we will all wait for him to be removed. Then I would report the incident to the state and let them deal with the AD for not getting rid of this individual in a timely manner. The state will deal with them better than making it about the overall contest will.

Peace

BillyMac Tue Dec 06, 2016 05:07pm

Beyond A Shadow Of A Doubt ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 994300)
I would have charged a team technical foul to the visiting team for this fan's unacceptable behavior.

How can one prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the fan was associated with the visiting team? Maybe he's a neutral fan? Maybe he's a "plant" and is actually a home team fan? Very slight chance, but it is possible.

2.8.1 SITUATION: What guidelines should be exercised by the officials when
spectators’ actions are such that they interfere with the administration of the
game? RULING: The rules book states “the official may rule fouls on either team
if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the
game.” It is significant to note the word used is “may.” This gives permission, but
does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on team followers
or supporters for unsporting acts. Thus, while officials do have the authority
to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the
game, this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the
authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated
that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem
and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not
have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the
unsporting act.
COMMENT: Responsibility for the behavior of spectators is that
of home or game management. The rules book stipulates that insofar as the management
can reasonably be expected to control the spectators, it is its responsibility
to do so. Home management has the responsibility of providing a site where
the game can proceed in a sporting manner. If the conduct of spectators prohibits
the orderly continuance of a game, the officials should have a representative of
game management take whatever action is necessary. This may require the
removal of a team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporters'
team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to notify game
management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. The officials
may stop the game until host management resolves the situation.
Another problem
arises when team supporters throw debris, paper, coins, ice or other items
on the floor. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw
the items, the official should instruct game management to have the supporter(s)
removed from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done without charging
the supporters' team with a technical foul. If the official does not have positive
knowledge, the official should instruct game management to make a public
address announcement stating that the next time debris is thrown on the floor, it
will result in a technical foul charged to that supporters' team and will also result
in the supporter(s) being removed from the facility. If after the announcement, the
situation is not brought under control, the officials may also stop the game until
host management resolves the situation.
In most situations, after an announcement
has been made, game management is very aware of the problem and will
usually have positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items on the
floor. If the disruption is not brought under control and the contest cannot safely
continue, rather than assess several technical fouls, officials are advised to
suspend the game.

MD Longhorn Tue Dec 06, 2016 05:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyro (Post 994244)
Now for my question. I know that this was not the 100% correct way to handle this, and ultimately the police should probably handle somebody who refuses to leave like that. Can a more experienced official walk me through how to handle a situation like this, and if there is a forfeit procedure involved at all? Thank you.

It was 95% the correct way to handle this.

Minor changes next time... A) you don't forfeit or threaten forfeit. B) " so I told the man that he needed to leave." ... don't talk to the fan at all. Not a single word. C) have the HOME team deal with it. You don't really know who this guy was a fan of. You might be 98% sure... but you are not 100% sure. Home team is in charge of the facilities.

Adam Tue Dec 06, 2016 05:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 994300)
And for those wondering, yes, I would have charged a team technical foul to the visiting team for this fan's unacceptable behavior.

Those of us who have been around weren't really wondering. ;)

JRutledge Tue Dec 06, 2016 05:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994313)
Those of us who have been around weren't really wondering. ;)

LOL!!!

Peace

Texas Aggie Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:01pm

Quote:

I disagree with the posters who have stated not to forfeit the game because of the poor spectator behavior.
Let me see if I can be absolutely clear: YOU NEVER, EVER FORFEIT A GAME. Not for ANY reason. You SUSPEND the game and turn it over to someone else. I don't care if the rule says, "shall forfeit." Someone else can always do that later but if you screw up for whatever reason and forfeit a game that shouldn't be forfeited, it is done. On the flip side, I can't think of any reason why suspending a game (rather than declaring a forfeit) would cause trouble.

I would probably clear the stands first if there were multiple fan problems but absent that, I'm suspending the game if it is so bad we can't continue. If a team doesn't show, I'm suspending the game. If a team walks off the floor, I'm suspending the game. If there is violence directed toward an official, I'm suspending the game.

jTheUmp Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:18pm

echoing what others have said for next time:
1) never talk to the fan.
2) tell the AD to handle it.
3) When AD weasels out, get home coach involved. Not really necessary to get visiting coach involved, but if you're sure was a visiting team fan (and, considering it was a freshman game, I'm sure it was pretty obvious who he was rooting for), I'm ok with getting visiting coach involved.

At this point, I'd probably just head back to the locker room and tell the coach/AD to come get you if and only if the jackass has left the building.

And, since the AD weaseled of his duties, a phone call to the assigner is in order as soon as you can get to your car; probably with at least an email to the assigner and possibly a report to the state later in the evening. These steps are mainly so that the assigner and state governing body can read the AD the riot act so this doesn't happen again in the future when a fan needs to be removed.

BigCat Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 994315)
Let me see if I can be absolutely clear: YOU NEVER, EVER FORFEIT A GAME. Not for ANY reason. You SUSPEND the game and turn it over to someone else. I don't care if the rule says, "shall forfeit." .

DO YOUR JOB. If a coach doesn't leave after second T...FORFEIT the game like the rule says. If you're afraid to make the decision you should probably find something else to do. "Turn it over to someone else" isn't what we do.

The "shall forfeit" language applies to team conduct. I've never had to do it but I can tell you if a coach would ever get a second T and refuse to leave I would tell the scorer the game is a forfeit.

Fan behavior doesn't fall under the shall forfeit language. Like others have said, I will look to AD or whomever to remove the person. If police are present and are involved I will play on. Police can forcibly remove someone. If there's no police, most underclass games, wait to resume game until person leaves. If he won't leave, you leave and write the report.

BigCat Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 994300)
I believe that you handled it extremely well.

I disagree with the posters who have stated not to forfeit the game because of the poor spectator behavior. The rules state that the officials may assess technical fouls to either team for spectator behavior and that the R has the power to forfeit the game when conditions warrant.

And for those wondering, yes, I would have charged a team technical foul to the visiting team for this fan's unacceptable behavior.

Rule says stop the game for spectator behavior and let game management deal with it. If game can't proceed then suspend. Fan behavior can be a reason to assess a T, (I've never done it or seen it) . Forfeit for fan behavior isn't a choice under rules as far as I remember.

packersowner Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:12am

I one time had a partner end a game halfway through the 4th quarter. Walked off the court sputtering something leaving me to clean up the pieces. Worst part was he had to stick around for the Varsity game. I was never so happy to leave. AD asked him what happens and he said, "tired of the fans bitching and the game was turning into a rugby match."

Some days you're happy to be home by 6.

Mark Padgett Thu Dec 08, 2016 08:53pm

OK - this isn't a "Dave-ism", but it's kind of close. Some of you may remember a former poster to this site named Rainmaker. Quite a few years ago, we were working a boys MS rec game. At halftime, she went over to the scorer's table. Some jerk stood up a few rows behind the table, held his glasses out in front of him and said to her, "Hey ref. You want to borrow my glasses?" She gave him our standard response, "Why? They're not doing you any good." The other parents cracked up and were laughing really loud. The jerk got PO'd, put up his fist and said to her, "You want to come up here and say that?" It was as if he was so mad that he wanted to hit her! The place went quiet. She looked at him again and said, "Why? Is your hearing bad too?" Again, the gym cracked up. The guy was so taken aback that he left!

I asked her where she got that second reply. She said it just popped into her head. She also asked me to walk her to her car after the game, just in case. I did, and the guy was nowhere to be seen.

Adam Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994321)
DO YOUR JOB. If a coach doesn't leave after second T...FORFEIT the game like the rule says.

Help me out here, which rule?

BigCat Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam (Post 994515)
help me out here, which rule?

5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

Bad Zebra Sat Dec 10, 2016 09:11am

Here in the Sunshine State, we have a slightly different protocol that prevents the newbie, clueless AD issue. All FHSAA sanctioned athletic events must have an "Administrator on duty". Sometimes it's the AD but usually a grisled old asst. principal or teacher looking to make a few extra bucks. I think they get paid a daily fee for serving, whereas the AD just gets his/her annual compensation so they generally don't like the additional responsibility of crowd control. Part of our state mandated pre-game duties is to find the AOD upon arrival. Part of their duties is to greet officials, show them to the dressing area, and resolve any crowd issues upon request. They are in charge of the entire facility during the contest outside the lines of the court. Often, during basketball season, there are soccer games taking place at the same time so they usually shuttle back and forth, but they are always present. Seems to work pretty well. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never seen one shirk their responsibility.

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994517)
5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994560)
I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

It is in the travesty section and it does say shall forfeit if team refuses to play. (Coach not leaving fits that). Also says we may forfeit if coach fails to comply with technical foul penalty. Fits that too. Now, if i give a second T I would give the coach some time to leave. How much? Have to be in the moment to know. I would probably say to an assistant. I'll give you a minute or whatever to get him out of here. If not, game is a forfeit.
I wouldnt give second T, coach lingers and then say forfeit. I dont want that and would do everything i can to avoid doing it. But....if he is still being an idiot and just wont leave, to the point that you and i are going to leave, that's a travesty, he's not allowing his team to play....And at that point, after hes made it a tremendous travesty, i dont know why i would worry about saying the word forfeit on my way out. He earned it.

I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994562)
I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994563)
Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

You're right the way i said it made it seem the rule said specifically, he fails to leave, forfeit. It's not that clear. And I agree, a governing body can change what i do if they want. If a game gets so bad that we threaten a forfeit if a coach doesnt do x, then, if he doesnt, i am going to say forfeit. I wont make the threat if im not prepared to follow through with it.

I dont think we disagree much. I just didnt agree with the fellow who said never ever forfeit the game, even if the rule said shall. If it gets this bad, i think we should to show we're not afraid to do it if someone's that big of an idiot. As you said, the governing body can do what they want.

BillyMac Sat Dec 10, 2016 01:27pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994562)
It is in the travesty section ...


5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a game if
any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any
technical-foul penalty,
or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other
acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to which the game is forfeited
is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall stand. If this team is not ahead,
the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its favor.

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 04:47pm

Refusing to play is a specific situation that doesn't apply to the coach being instructed to leave. I've been part of that situation as a player, and it's different. There's a reason it says "shall" in this part.

Now, the sentence Billy puts in red is the important one here, and it's the one I would use. I'm going to give the AC every chance to get the coach off the court, but if push comes to shove, we can't be afraid to pull the trigger. This says "may" because there are other tools we can usually use to get there. If an official "suspends" instead of "forfeits," though, I'm pretty sure any sanctioned governing body is going to declare this a forfeit and not worry about the semantics.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994592)
Refusing to play is a specific situation that doesn't apply to the coach being instructed to leave. I've been part of that situation as a player, and it's different. There's a reason it says "shall" in this part.

Now, the sentence Billy puts in red is the important one here, and it's the one I would use. I'm going to give the AC every chance to get the coach off the court, but if push comes to shove, we can't be afraid to pull the trigger. This says "may" because there are other tools we can usually use to get there. If an official "suspends" instead of "forfeits," though, I'm pretty sure any sanctioned governing body is going to declare this a forfeit and not worry about the semantics.

Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? Mine. Team behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark...Can't remember. I was just popping off because somebody said never ever forfeit a game. As if it were a crime to do so. NCAAM is shall for these.

BillyMac Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:23pm

Misty Water-Colored Memories ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994599)
Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? ... Team (defense) behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark ...

Lack of Action: One warning ("Play ball") per quarter, followed by a technical foul (probably one shot back then). Defense is responsible in a tied game.

Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

Adam Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994599)
Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? Mine. Team behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark...Can't remember. I was just popping off because somebody said never ever forfeit a game. As if it were a crime to do so. NCAAM is shall for these.

No, here's my situation as I recall (it's been a minute).

My sophomore year, we were preparing to play a perennial state champion. They were dominant, and had a reputation for running up the score. Before the game, our coach asked if we'd be ok with walking off the court if they ran the score up again.
Start of the fourth quarter, they're up 90-30 (rough numbers), and they send their starters out. Coach calls our guys back to the bench and we proceed to walk off the court.

That is refusing to play.

Coach took a two game suspension for that.

UNIgiantslayers Mon Dec 12, 2016 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994650)
No, here's my situation as I recall (it's been a minute).

My sophomore year, we were preparing to play a perennial state champion. They were dominant, and had a reputation for running up the score. Before the game, our coach asked if we'd be ok with walking off the court if they ran the score up again.
Start of the fourth quarter, they're up 90-30 (rough numbers), and they send their starters out. Coach calls our guys back to the bench and we proceed to walk off the court.

That is refusing to play.

Coach took a two game suspension for that.

Kudos to your coach. I know of a few coaches who would have sent the goons out rather than take that passive approach.

Raymond Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers (Post 994658)
Kudos to your coach. I know of a few coaches who would have sent the goons out rather than take that passive approach.

A good, hard foul sometimes does magic. :)


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