Flagrant foul or not
 

Varsity girls... possession is secured by the offense...defender is not in legal guarding position (right up in tight)offensive player turns and elbow caughts defender in the face ....what's your call


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Honestly would have to see it. I could see this as a regular PC foul if the ball handler did not measure up the defender.

This is really a HTBT situation where we would have to judge the actions before this play and even some afterwards.

Peace

This is one of those things that irritates me to no end. 4 years ago(I think) the NFHS put out the point of emphasis on elbows. They said an elbow "in movement" that hits opponent in head is/was at least an intentional foul. (could be flagrant). Your play, the elbow is moving, so it would be at least, intentional under those guidelines. The player was responsible for his elbows..even if defender in his grill. Now, where can you find that information? Not in the rule book or case book. That is something that happens from time to time and should be in the rule book. Certainly with the emphasis on Concussions you'd think they'd tell us what they want on elbow/head contact and put it somewhere it can be found.


(And I have never agreed with those who say the book would be too long so we can't put all rules in a rule book. The NCAA does pretty well.

At the least I'd like to see them have an electronic library of all case plays they say are still valid and rules etc. )

You do not see this anywhere because it was an overreaction and taking a position that even the NCAA backed off of. There were many times where any slight contact with an opponent would have been an intentional or flagrant when the player was doing normal basketball movements. If I recall they did not make a definitive statement across the board. But I know my state made it clear that we were not to just make this an "automatic" but to judge the nature of the contact. For example if a player is coming down a rebounding the ball and hitting the opponent in the head with an elbow where the player might not have even realized the opponent was there. After all players do try to grab the ball and come down with their elbows in some kind of way. Now our state clarified this for us here, maybe you need to get clarification from your people. The NF is just going to give what they feel needs to be addressed and the specifics are going to come from your jurisdiction as that is their overall policy it seems.


Peace

I believe the title of your thread is erroneous for discussing a high school game. The term "flagrant" under NFHS rules means the offender is disqualified, and I don't think you're suggesting that disqualification would be warranted based on the information you described.

HTBT. Perhaps intentional, but just no way to know.

Sounds a lot like James Harden/Marcus Smart in the final 20 seconds of tonight's Celtics-Rockets game.

Officials ruled Flagrant 1 (after about the fourth tedious visit to the Replay Center in the final minute ... awful) and I definitely would've gone flagrant in a HS game too.

He might feel that the actions deserve an ejection or the player in question was ejected so there is some question about the ruling.

I was asked the same question about a week ago by a coach at a tournament I worked and then watched. That was the way the coach addressed this situation because his player was ejected from the game apparently. So it might be why he is asking the question in the first place?

Peace

2012-13 POINTS OF EMPHASIS

a. . . . Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. . . .
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders.
1) Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3) A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or
flagrant personal foul.

I wish to know why the OP believe that the defender does not have a legal guarding position. Perhaps the question is intended for NCAA rules and the new cylinder interpretation is applicable.

He stated it was a Varsity Girls contest. Are there any states that use college rules beyond implementation of the shot clock?

why is this not LGP?

I think NYS (possibly just NYC) uses NCAA-W for girl's basketball.

We went with intentional foul didn't think it was a violent act ....thanks for the feed back


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Still curious why you think LGP was missing.

It sounds like he is interpreting this as a "cylinder play" which is not illegal in the NF level.

Peace

NCAA-M this may not be LGP if an offensive player is rotating within their cylinder and elbows are vertical and the elbows or forearm make contact with said defender. The foul is on the defender.

What rule set were you utilizing?

Would also like to know the answer to Adam's question.

intentional 4 elbow heighth with assumption of NO knowledge of defender. Any thought of A1 knowing, Gone


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Yes, New York.

Not on a player just turning. If the elbow moves independent of the hips, minimum intentional.

If you read the POE, the written words require that any moving elbow is intentional. Contact with an elbow "in movement" is intentional foul, it says. If the elbows move in a speed faster than the body rotates it is deemed "excessive" and intentional OR flagrant is possible.

If the elbow is stationary it is either incidental or common foul. Common foul example is a screening player setting it with hands at chest and elbows out beyond shoulders. Illegal position. Defender runs by and hits elbow with head. Elbow is stationary so common foul.

The way the POE is written if the elbow is moving in high school it is intentional. Even if the elbow is simply moving with the rest of the body at normal speed.

That is what the POE says and requires. I dont like it. Id like to be able to call a common foul in certain circumstances. My biggest gripe though is that all this, whatever they want, isnt in the rule book.

Fed .....after reading Lgp rule I think the defender was legal


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The POE was not written that way. A moving elbow is one moving faster than the torso, IE swinging elbows.

Moving Elbow ...
 

Are you sure?

"An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul."

All the stuff that came out in regarding that poe made it clear.

Plug in elbows 2012 National Fedration point of emphasis into your browser and you will see that it is written that way. A moving elbow....is moving. An elbow moving faster than the torso is also moving....excessively.

I guess there are 2 things to consider:

1.Was the action intentional.
2.How bad was the contact if there was any.

Intentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional & Minor = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Intentional no contact = Technical Foul/Unsportsmanship Foul.

Unintentional & Bad = Flagrant 2/Disqualifying foul

Unintentional & Minor = Flagrant 1/Unsportsmanship foul

If we are talking elbow plays, calling a technical foul is not appropriate. This is violation or nothing at either NF or NCAA level.

Peace

Unless the official deems it an attempt to strike the opponent. He did write that it was an intentional act.