Slight Body Contact on drive to basket
 

New official here. I am having a tough time, especially as lead in 2 man crew, judging if slight contact is a foul when the defender is step for step with dribbler on a drive to the basket. I do not want to punish the defense for keeping good position and not pushing but I seem to get in trouble with my no calls because the game becomes more physical. There is no hacking or pushing just what I consider incidental contact. Also players know to fall away from the shot making it look like a push or has happened. I can't seem to get consistent with this call. Has anyone had to overcome this dilemma?

Identifying who initiates the contact and determining whether or not the defender has LGP would go a long way in clearing up your dilemma.

Buckeye38:

Welcome to the Forum.

First: now you know why we are paid the big $s, LOL!

Second: You will no doubt receive responses referring to acronyms that refer to position and displacement. But ignore them for now.

Third: Practice, practice, practice! What do I mean? Officiate as many games at all levels (youth, JrHS, FR, JV, VAR, CYO, and recreational leagues.

Fourth: Start be calling it close, because you are correct with your thinking about the game becoming too physical. But as you gain more and more experience you will start to what and is and probably is not a foul.

Fifth: Have veteran officials evaluate you. Also, it is not too early in your career to attend a camp for young officials, where two-man crew officiating is emphasized.

And I assume by your user name that I can tell you: GO BUCKEYES!!

MTD, Sr.

Call what you see. That is all you can do. You have to see those plays over and over again and consider the rules that apply. Was the players vertical, LGP or did the contact that is illegal cause an advantage. Do that and you will get better. Oh and you can see plays over and over again by just simply watching film as well as officiating a game.

Peace

The stages of a new official (applies to all sports, but seems especially prevalent in basketball):

Stage 1: Call nothing because a) you didn't see anything or b) you're not sure if something is a foul or not.
Stage 2: Call everything because you're getting used to seeing things that happen on a basketball court, but you're anticipating the call too much so you call things that aren't there.
Stage 3: Develop the balance between "there was contact that was incidental" and "there was contact that wasn't incidental"

Sounds like you're in Stage 1. We've all been there. In my case, it took me about a full season of rec and low-level high school ball to get from stage 1 to stage 2, and about another season after that to get to stage 3. But even Stage 3 officials can end up with Stage 1 and Stage 2 calls from time to time.

The key is practice, observation of other officials (both in person and on film), mentoring, and training.

Stick with it... it'll get better, I promise. We'll be here to help when you need it.

I would tell everyone that the whistle needs to be blown more. If a defender is hugging a player to the basket call a foul and make them give some space. I have always said "if I'm going down..I'm going down blowing my whistle."

When you do high level high school or college ball there's an art to what you call or don't call. At lower levels, don't try to judge advantage disadvantage. If there's contact that's more than a tap call a foul. Dribbler needs space, cutters need to be able to cut without being chucked...It is better to error on the side of blowing too many whistles than not enough.

Sorry, wouldn't be true to my screen name if I didn't say I disagree, at least somewhat. Do not fabricate a foul with your whistle when there is not one. Don't guess, be as sure as you can, before penalizing a kid with a phantom foul call. But this comes, as others have said, with a lot of practice. Try seeing the defender in this play from the OP, instead of focusing only on the ball handler as he drives to the bucket. This will help you determine LGP, then be sure HE is responsible for the contact, that you haven't just seen something inadvertent, possibly initiated by the offensive player. Good luck! I hope you do well and have a long career. Visit this forum often...lots of good knowledge and debate, much of which I'm sure will follow this post:rolleyes:

Your screen name gave us the New York Knicks in the 90,s. A football game/fist fight. I'm not saying make a phantom call but if a player is being ridden to the basket..call a foul. The NCAA has realized that advantage/disadvantage is/was a disaster. That is why we have automatics now. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone has to make their own choices. This is my position.

And if I had to choose between my position and letemplay's...id choose mine. Imagine that. I am a rocket scientist btw....

I agree that advantage/disadvantage has been superseded by the freedom of movement initiative (which FINALLY made some headway this past season). And I would also agree that there are the supposed automatic fouls in Rule 10-6 that help take some of the guesswork out of officiating.

The problem is that none of the automatics apply to the situation described in the OP. This is about LGP and space entitlements, pure and simple.

My advice for this situation is arguably cliché, but valid nonetheless: see the play start, develop and finish....and have a patient whistle.

For a new official this is MUCH easier said then done, but as you see (many) more plays it will become easier. The level you're officiating also makes a difference; contact as you describe may have a big impact on the offensive player in a 5th grade game but hardly any impact in a varsity game.

And this is why officiating is as much art as science.

I think the acronym that someone alluded to above is RSBQ (Rhythm, Speed, Balance, and Quickness). If the contact affects any one of the four elements to the point where the offensive player is disadvantaged, call the foul.

I think it also depends on the level of ball you're officiating. Younger players, especially on the girls side, will be affected more by a little contact. As players get older and stronger, the little bumps won't affect them and they're able to play through it.

And I'm a rocket science INSTRUCTOR:D

I say let em play, not let em fight..kidding aside, I have to say the NBA and the game the OP is officiating are two very different animals, wouldn't you agree to that? Pros have long benches, get 6 fouls before DQ, and get paid to park their butt on a bench after some hacking, and so on. A high school team or player or lower level, for this guy starting out and asking for our help and opinion, can be so much more effected by unnecessary whistles, or as I said guesses, that I was just cautioning about not getting too tweety, for fear of missing one or two fouls.

We've all been there and it'll just come with reps. Eventually you will just know when the defense is gaining an advantage and when the contact isn't enough to warrant a foul. Just remember to officiate the defense. Don't call contact if they didn't do anything wrong.

Observe ...
 

Once the scholastic season starts, new officials should observe as many top notch varsity officials as they can. Under no circumstances should they be leaving the site earlier than halftime of the varsity game following their subvarsity game.

If a new official was observed by varsity officials showing up early for their varsity game, new officials should be asking for advice from more experienced varsity officials, "So, did you see anything out there to help me out?". Ask for advice, don't wait, and expect to be given advice.

This. You gotta beg, borrow, and steal experience. Find one or two guys who you can text and call to ask questions. Find out who is working the game after you and ask if they would be willing to come out and watch. As a Varsity guy now I have some JV guys ask what I saw out there when they come in the locker room but unless they ask me before I wont know to be looking.

My first year I believe I stayed after MAYBE 2-3 games at most. My second year maybe a dozen and it sure wasn't to watch the officials. By my third year I was getting playoff games most 8-10 year guys wish for. Keep in mind, the most important part here, is that I do not at ALL consider myself well above average. I do, however, know my limits and put in countless hours fine tuning my craft. Watching most varsity officials just wasn't something I thought was worth my time. I could spend an hour or two in the book, video recording myself at home, watching my own games, watching past HS 5A+ state final refs. Watching NCAA refs on TV, etc.

I'm sure this method works wonders for many, but I'm just not wired to get much out of it -- and I know that. I wouldn't say what was said in bold is 100% true for everyone.

I do not agree with the "under no circumstances" line because there are always reasons not to say. We do have some level of a life outside of this and we can have plans to go somewhere else. But officials that are younger should make a habit of staying to watch varsity officials as you can learn or get different perspectives. I would say that if nothing else you can learn a lot of the tricks of the trade that never are talked about in meetings or training very often.

And if you are saying you could watch those other games, then that is great, but you cannot talk to them at all about their calls or actions. If you are around the officials watching, you can always go into the locker room and observe the things they talk about or ask them "Why did that get called like....?"

Of course there are always exceptions to anything, but most people should be doing this on some level. Heck those varsity officials might try to help you if you know you are trying to get better in some small way that will be invaluable. But I know I am not helping someone that is not trying to get better as a general rule. Staying and watching helps show you want to learn something.

Peace

Stay, Stay, Stay, Unless You Really Can't ...
 

Point taken. My words were most certainly too strong.

"Step by step" with the dribbler is not really good position.

This will keep you at lower levels.

Freedom of movement, advantage/disadvantage, RSBQ, Wiley/Roadrunner, they're all (mostly) just various ways off applying the incidental contact rule. Too many officials ignore this. Newer officials who don't yet grasp it will always call too much. That's ok, it's part of the learning process. The fact is, though, there is going to be a lot more incidental contact in your games than illegal contact. Even at lower levels.

Have you forgotten how much random contact there is with 10 players in the key trying to get the rebound? :D

No idea what your experience level is as a player,coach or referee. I can tell you as a player, a college, high school and even grade school coach ..and a referee that when I watch lower level games the issue is NEVER that too many whistles are blown. Always, not enough.

And as far as incidental contact--If I'm driving to the hole and you have a hand or hip on me I will continue on...and to everyone in the gym it appears that that hip or hand isn't affecting me. I can assure you that it does. Incidental contact is meant to be contact that is accidental. If you are riding me to the basket that's not incidental.

Finally, referees stay at lower levels because they don't blow the whistle enough. Or their mouth gets them in trouble. That is my opinion/experience. Blow the whistle more than less. Everyone will have to make their own decision.

No, this is not incidental. They even changed the rule to reflect this.

In my experience, more will get stuck for calling too much than for calling too little. That's just my experience. There are obviously other reasons officials don't progress, and some certainly are too whistle-shy.

jtheump's stages need revised, IMO. I've said for years that the stages I've seen are:

1. Afraid to blow the whistle. This normally lasts only a few games, sometimes a bit longer.

2. Calling everything. Not just the handchecks, but every single contact they see regardless of whether it had any impact on the play.

3. Recognizing the incidental contact rule and swinging back the other way. Letting too much go.

It takes time to get this right, but that doesn't mean officials shouldn't try. I see it as a necessary stage of development in order to get the right balance. Some certainly get stuck in this stage, or they get stage/fright as they get better games and they don't blow the whistle.

4. Equilibrium and good judgment between incidental and illegal contact.

:) All incidental.

No, incidental contact is that which is permitted and doesn't constitute a foul. Whether or not the contact is an accident has nothing to do with it. When a screener makes contact with a defensive player, that contact is not accidental, but it is incidental. On the flip side, you can foul someone and not have "meant" to do it.

If by this you mean keeping a hand or hands on you, then yes, that's a 10-6-12 foul.

I have to disagree. Although the NBA and a high school are completely different it is not based on long benches, 6 fouls... Etc... I would suggest the NBA game, when it comes to these plays, is easier to officiate than a high school game. The players are more skilled and more likely to not have contact affect the drive. In a high school game with less skilled players it is more difficult to determine what really affects a shot and not so we make more calls.

Now back the the original post

1) referee the defense.you know what the offense is trying to do and where they are going.
2) assume the play is legal until the defender proves to you they violated the rule. If you can't articulate what the player did wrong, then they did not do it.

Goes back to understanding LGP. Never take away good defense. Never take away proper defense.

I am going to have to disagree with this too as every time I have talked to an NBA Official or someone in their system, they do not do anything different than we do. And the NBA IMO calls more fouls than we do and are more consistent.

Peace

I think its been a foul under the rules forever…long before 10-6-12. I think individual referees trying to judge if a hand on and remaining on the dribbler was an advantage was one of the things that lead us to rough/physical ugly basketball and to 10-6-12. There's never been any legitimate reason for a defender to place and leave a hand on the dribbler. (and this is what i meant by accidental) Also, as i mentioned earlier, if you have a hand on me while I'm dribbling and leave it there it does have an effect. Problem is to everyone else, including the referees, it may appear as if it doesn't. I think 10-6-12 and the ncaa cylinder rules are clarifying that those actions are fouls and should be called. I think however, that its been a foul under the rules for a long, long time. thx.

I wouldn't say that blowing more or less is such a clear separator. There are boundaries, sure, and you want to follow your assigners' paradigms, but I think what's far more important is crew consistency. Have good pre-games, be a good partner, make calls that are like your partners' calls and pass on plays that are like plays your partners are passing on. Do that all the time with all kinds of different crews and you probably won't "stay at lower levels."

You know, there are many reasons why people don't advance so me saying it is because they don't blow the whistle enough Isnt the best way to say it. Obviously, if you blow it too much (you are always making wrong calls) or you don't blow it enough (train wrecks..assault and batteries with no whistle) your not going to advance. Having said that, I see far more people not blowing the whistle on things that are fouls than I do blowing it too much. Adam's number 4 is where we all want to be. I think the NFHS and NCAA giving us automatics is telling us that there weren't enough whistles being blown.

I agree, but one of the most restrictive aspects on people's schedules, from what I've seen, is that their perception of how a call should be made and the reality of it are vastly different. Especially when it comes to how games are called at different levels. Just because a call is a great one to make in college doesn't mean it's going to be a good call in HS.

I do not call the game differently from one level to the other unless a rule applies which most things like verticality, freedom of movement and what is a block-charge call are all the same.

What often those that only work high school do is they make the basic mistake by thinking what happens in college is about more than simple judgment.

Peace

Head and Shoulders
 

4.23.3 SITUATION A:

B1 has obtained a legal guarding position on A1 and moves to maintain it. A1 moves laterally and contacts defender B1 but does not get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of B1. Contact occurs on the side of B1's torso.

RULING: Player-control foul by A1. (4-7-2)

I'm not really sure what you meant by your bold point.

Rules aside, the game is inherently different between men/women and younger/older leagues. Walking onto 5A varsity game thinking you're going to treat it like a middle school game is, well..., good luck! We probably have different definitions of calling a game differently, but I'm adamant on my point that officials moving up don't adapt with the game they are officiating(At least not the ones that move up successfully).

I believe the OP's problem is judgement, not the actual written rules.

High school officials who never have interactions with higher level seem to think that there is some drastic instruction or philosophy that happens at the higher levels. There is not.

And I call the game exactly the same based on contact and whether a foul is to be called or not. I do not do anything different. The difference is that a kid in middle school might not handle contact the same as someone in college. But then again a kid in college is not as clumsy either. So what is considered incidental might vary, but that is more about the talent, not the level.

Peace

What I'm saying is they do blow whistle more in NBA it seems (regardless of their athletic ability to play through) and that's a good thing. I think at a lower level, let's say high school, that too many times players are saddled with phantom calls, and have to go to the bench early. This can have a profound effect on a hs team, unlike the NBA, that can withstand some guesses. College ball's been over for the year for a bit, so lately all I've watched is NBA, and I see just as many missed foul calls (on replay of course) as we saw in college season. I suppose I was just wanting to take an opposite approach to some who suggested to a young official, coming on this forum looking for advice, to basically blow the whistle at anything...I'd rather they didn't..

Agreed, and I meant them as one in the same. Moving up in an association doesn't make much since if it's going towards worst talent. ;p

I might have missed this in the replies, but I'm curious as to why the OP specifically mentioned 2-man crew. Honestly I missed that the first time I read the post. I couldn't help but wonder why there wasn't anyone offering advice about mechanics, so I went back and read the OP again worried that I missed something.

Since the OP stated a concern about having more difficulty with this judgement from lead in 2-man mechanics, I'm wondering if your positioning might be part of the issue. Being in the right position to fully assess the play is crucial and getting to the right position starts before the offensive player even starts the drive. If you are trying to get into the right position after the offense initiates the drive, you're probably not going to get there.

Other aspects to consider:

Where are the drives that you're having the most difficulty with being initiated and where are they going? Baseline drives from the wing can be challenging if you get too close to the play. I worked with a guy that thought the lead should camp out on the lane line extended. He hustled to get there, but anytime the ball was on the wing on his side, he was only able to see the ball handler and his defender because of his positioning. When there was a baseline drive toward him, I had a better angle to see contact from the trail position on the opposite side of the court. Drives from the top of key down the lane (or along the lane) have different challenges as there is typically more activity in the lane to watch (defensive post players reaching and offensive post players trying to screen) and the increased possibility of having your view obstructed by all the additional bodies. Sometimes there isn't a position the lead can be in to see everything, but that is why there is a trail to help.

Are the drives occurring during transition plays or during the half-court offense? Since you didn't mentioned in the OP, I'm wondering if you have considered how the difference between these situations impacts your positioning? Do you race back down the court trying to get to the baseline in front of a fast break play and find yourself with the added challenge of trying to look over your shoulder to see the entire play? If you can beat the play to the baseline and maintain a good angle to see the entire play, so be it. Sometimes you get a better angle from the sideline while allowing the play to finish in front of you rather than beating it to the baseline and having a bad angle.

If you feel you are more capable of making these calls from the trail or in 3-man mechanics, remember the principles by which you make the call are the same regardless of where you are or how many officials there are, so the judgement aspect of this is the same either way. Just work hard to get in the right position so you can see what you need to see to apply that judgement. Lastly whether the issue is your positioning or your judgement, follow the advice of others here and study (watch games, watch film, read the books, etc) and seek feedback from other officials.

Does the defender jump straight up or does he jump from point A and end up at point B which includes contacting the offensive player?

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