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-   -   Is it always our fault? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/10116-always-our-fault.html)

Luv4Asian8 Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:21pm

Senario (my first game ever...see First Game thread :)) - I was told by management that since the court was a bit smaller than regulation, the backcourt would be at the volleyball line about 5-10 feet back from the actual division line. After Team A makes goal, B1 inbounds ball to B2. B2 dribbles passed (volleyball) "backcourt" and is now in the "gray" area between v-ball line and div line. B2 passes back to B1 which is still in "backcourt." I call the violation and get the drill of "we didn't know that!"

I figured they would have known since I stopped my counts at the vball line instead of div.line all night. Do we need to explain ever nuance of rules to the players, or is like the law - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

rainmaker Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
Senario (my first game ever...see First Game thread :)) - I was told by management that since the court was a bit smaller than regulation, the backcourt would be at the volleyball line about 5-10 feet back from the actual division line. After Team A makes goal, B1 inbounds ball to B2. B2 dribbles passed (volleyball) "backcourt" and is now in the "gray" area between v-ball line and div line. B2 passes back to B1 which is still in "backcourt." I call the violation and get the drill of "we didn't know that!"

I figured they would have known since I stopped my counts at the vball line instead of div.line all night. Do we need to explain ever nuance of rules to the players, or is like the law - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Ha!! I'm not sure how to answer your question, but I'm beating Tony to the punch -- I hope!

...and mick! Cool! Must be the clean living paying off...


[Edited by rainmaker on Sep 19th, 2003 at 02:50 PM]

mick Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
I call the violation and get the drill of "we didn't know that!"

I figured they would have known since I stopped my counts at the vball line instead of div.line all night. Do we need to explain ever nuance of rules to the players, or is like the law - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Luv4Asian8,
Explaining court problems should be done at the Captains' meeting. If the players are too young to understand, we should get both coaches together and explain it to them.
Then, we have done performed our duty.
Fun, ain't it? ;)
mick

rainmaker Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:48pm

Okay well now that I got THAT out of the way, here's how I would handle this kind of situation in the future: Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.

And BTW, in answer to the question on your subject line, Yes, everything is always our fault. The missed free throws, the slow defence, the bad passes, it's all because of us. Just always keep that straight in your mind.

Luv4Asian8 Fri Sep 19, 2003 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
Senario (my first game ever...see First Game thread :)) - I was told by management that since the court was a bit smaller than regulation, the backcourt would be at the volleyball line about 5-10 feet back from the actual division line. After Team A makes goal, B1 inbounds ball to B2. B2 dribbles passed (volleyball) "backcourt" and is now in the "gray" area between v-ball line and div line. B2 passes back to B1 which is still in "backcourt." I call the violation and get the drill of "we didn't know that!"

I figured they would have known since I stopped my counts at the vball line instead of div.line all night. Do we need to explain ever nuance of rules to the players, or is like the law - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Ha!! I'm not sure how to answer your question, but I'm beating Tony to the punch -- I hope!

...and mick! Cool! Must be the clean living paying off...


[Edited by rainmaker on Sep 19th, 2003 at 02:50 PM]

easiest answer, rainmaker, IT'S NEVER OUR FAULT!! ;)

mick Fri Sep 19, 2003 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Must be the clean living paying off...

Ah, ...but the practice of clean living must be continuous between the ages of 20 and 40, otherwise, the line between 50 and 80 is, oh, so thin! ;)
mick

mick Fri Sep 19, 2003 03:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay well now that I got THAT out of the way, here's how I would handle this kind of situation in the future: <u> Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.</u>


Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

Back In The Saddle Fri Sep 19, 2003 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
Do we need to explain ever nuance of rules to the players, or is like the law - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?
You only need to communicate about things don't want to have trouble with! IMO a referee can get all the calls and no calls right, know the rules inside and out, and work the mechanics flawlessly, but still won't be a great referee until he or she has learned the art of communicating.

And it is an art. Case in point: held a captains meeting this week with both coaches and captains. I said to everybody, "You've already played one game this season, so everybody knows the new rules, right? Especially the new free throw rule about the number of players on the lane?" Everybody nods and mutters yes. First free throw, player from team B lines up in the top spot. I tell him the top spots have to remain open. He gives me a blank stare, B coach yells, "What are you talking about?" So I hustle over and give the coach the 10 second overview of what he said he already understood in the captains meeting. I guess I need to work on that a bit more :)

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Sep 19th, 2003 at 03:51 PM]

ChuckElias Fri Sep 19, 2003 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
<u> Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.</u>
Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

This doesn't seem so bad, mick, as long you understand that Juulie is talking about any rule changes for that court, not any NFHS rule changes for the new season. Kind of like baseball coaches and umps going over the ground rules of the ballpark before the game.

Luv4Asian8 Fri Sep 19, 2003 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
You only need to communicate about things don't want to have trouble with! IMO a referee can get all the calls and no calls right, know the rules inside and out, and work the mechanics flawlessly, but still won't be a great referee until he or she has learned the art of communicating.

And it is an art. Case in point: held a captains meeting this week with both coaches and captains. I said to everybody, "You've already played one game this season, so everybody knows the new rules, right? Especially the new free throw rule about the number of players on the lane?" Everybody nods and mutters yes. First free throw, player from team B lines up in the top spot. I tell him the top spots have to remain open. He gives me a blank stare, B coach yells, "What are you talking about?" So I hustle over and give the coach the 10 second overview of what he said he already understood in the captains meeting. Getting the communication right might just be the hardest part of our job.

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Sep 19th, 2003 at 03:48 PM] [/B]

Great point! during my 2nd night, I finally had a parnter...well experienced. he began enforcing the new lane rule you just mentioned. honestly, i didnt know about it myself. but found out once he communicated that to me. Lessons on the Battlefield :)

Mark Padgett Fri Sep 19, 2003 04:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

Whenever I work with Juulie, everything's always her fault - especially overtimes.

rainmaker Fri Sep 19, 2003 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
<u> Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.</u>
Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

This doesn't seem so bad, mick, as long you understand that Juulie is talking about any rule changes for that court, not any NFHS rule changes for the new season. Kind of like baseball coaches and umps going over the ground rules of the ballpark before the game.

Yea, yea, what he said!

Seriously, I have worked at a wide variety of different venues and I have learned that it's always best to just touch on the highlights before-hand. Saves lots of arguing later. For that court. Yes.

Where would be the joke?

mick Fri Sep 19, 2003 04:20pm

Nope!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Kind of like baseball coaches and umps going over the ground rules of the ballpark before the game.
Using your metaphor, I would be giving ground rules just before the first pitch.

Those lines on the court have to be noted before the teams come out for the jump.

We have to be like Holiday Inn used to be - No surprises.

mick Fri Sep 19, 2003 04:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
<u> Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.</u>
Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

This doesn't seem so bad, mick, as long you understand that Juulie is talking about any rule changes for that court, not any NFHS rule changes for the new season. Kind of like baseball coaches and umps going over the ground rules of the ballpark before the game.

Yea, yea, what he said!

Seriously, I have worked at a wide variety of different venues and I have learned that it's always best to just touch on the highlights before-hand. Saves lots of arguing later. For that court. Yes.

Where would be the joke?

Jewel,
Okay, so it wasn't a tongue-in-cheeker. Hmmm.
Where you said, "<I>Right before the toss,...</I>, is what I question.
You cannot expect players to get a new rule and understand it in that short a time period. How do you tell the coaches? Do you just look over your shoulder and mention it from the circle?
The teams need time to adjust presses and offenses. They can't be blind-sided or ambushed like that.
mick

rainmaker Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
<u> Right before the toss, just ask, "Have you guys played here before? Do you know about the division line thing?" And include any other rule changes that you know about. Then later they can't say they didn't know.</u>
Jewel,
I hope you are joking.
mick

This doesn't seem so bad, mick, as long you understand that Juulie is talking about any rule changes for that court, not any NFHS rule changes for the new season. Kind of like baseball coaches and umps going over the ground rules of the ballpark before the game.

Yea, yea, what he said!

Seriously, I have worked at a wide variety of different venues and I have learned that it's always best to just touch on the highlights before-hand. Saves lots of arguing later. For that court. Yes.

Where would be the joke?

Jewel,
Okay, so it wasn't a tongue-in-cheeker. Hmmm.
Where you said, "<I>Right before the toss,...</I>, is what I question.
You cannot expect players to get a new rule and understand it in that short a time period. How do you tell the coaches? Do you just look over your shoulder and mention it from the circle?
The teams need time to adjust presses and offenses. They can't be blind-sided or ambushed like that.
mick

I see your point. When I work at the local basketball club, where the rules change for the different levels of play, it's more of a difference for me than for them. I just get the players together right before the toss and say, "You kids know all about the funny time-outs, right?" or something, because they usually have been there more than I have. They don't need the whole formal thing, since they've already been playing there three weeks or three months or whatever. Then if I've joined in right at the beginning or if this is just a weekend tourney, they can just look puzzled or say "What?" and I get the coaches out and explain the whole thing. I do it that way because sometimes even if the coaches know, they may not have explained it to the players, and they may have picked up a few new players who haven't played there yet. My way, I'm trying to cover the bases, but with some efficiency.


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