ND-SFA Last Basket
 

How does the wording compare in NCAA rules compared to NFHS with regard to ball at disposal and starting the throw-in count after the made basket? On the last play in this game the ball laid on the floor for a couple of seconds before being rolled out of bounds where it remained for another 7 or 8 seconds before being picked up and, I assume, the count started.

I thought about that, too. I don't think there is any difference between the rule sets (other than the clock stopping after the made basket), and from lots of other discussions on this forum, you give the non-scoring team a lot of latitude when it comes to retrieving the ball and starting your count. I was perfectly ok with the way the officials handled that.

Of course, in a federation game, if the ball rolls under a bleacher or is in some other way hard to get to, you should blow it dead so as not to disadvantage the non-scoring team. And that is assuming they did not have a time out to call (which they almost certainly would in this case if they did).

By the way, as a side note, I thought the clock (at least the one on TV) was changed from 1.4 to 1.5 seconds during that long pause after the basket. How did that happen if the officials did not stop play to address it? Could be just a sync issue with the game clock and the television clock. But I could not help but notice that.

It's one of those great circular rules and it's the same in NCAA and NFHS.
(The NCAAM's wording should be the same, though the rule #s might be slightly different)

So, the count begins when the ball is at the disposal...and the ball is at the disposal when it's available to a player and the count begins. I call it the chicken or the egg rule.

At any rate, common sense will play into a situation such as SFA/ND. SFA is getting its bearings after giving up an emotionally devastating FG. There was definitely a lot of time taken between the FG and a player retrieving the ball but that time also allowed ND to set up its defense. One could say the delay was more advantageous to ND since it was setting up its defense in front of its own bench while SFA's head coach was - at best - 66 feet away from the player making the throw-in.

If the clock had been running, and it was the team that was ahead that didn't get to the ball, then start counting.

Or, if one player had the ball, but the others "weren't ready" -- then start the count.

In this game, in this situation, it was right (imo).

JMF - You nailed this one perfectly. Let's keep out of this one as long as we possible can. Great game management !!!!!

I'd love to see a video of the sequence before that. Specifically how the ND player ended up on the floor after engaging with #0 from SFA.

(Personally, I think the new L should've made a 5 second call from half court. :D)

Ha, i caught that. lets see that one again...:eek:

Were all three zebras Irish Catholic celebrating the holiday ??? SFA had no chance !!!!!:D:D:D

As I recall, with the ball on the floor out of bounds, one player stepped out of bounds, then motioned to another to step out and make the throw-in. I'm thinking I would have started the count when the first player stepped out.

There is a big difference between a clock running and a clock being totally stopped. All that delay did was help the defense set up. Without specific direction from the NCAA, I am OK with what was done.

Peace

Absolutely!

At that point the ball was still out of reach of anybody. It had rolled a long way into the crowd or whoever was sitting back there

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Not sure about that, but I know he wasn't reaching for it. He was directing traffic for the other guy to step out and make the pass while he went back in to receive it.

Seriously, why's he required to go get the ball?

The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player. It is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the count.

Nothing is said about the count not starting until he picks up the ball. What's to keep them from huddling and having a timeout if you're not going to start the count at some point?

You do it your way, everyone else will do it theirs. What they did was the expected way to handle the situation, and as said before the time was stopped, they were down and they gave the defense time to setup.

The team inbounding did not gain any advantage. We can play all the what ifs, but the adjudication was correct.

That's fine. That's what I'm asking. What is expected? Y'all are telling me there's no limit here? He can stand over the ball as long as he wants, and if he doesn't pick it up there is no count?

It wasn't available -- it was back in the crowd. Just cause the last guy went and got it doesn't mean the first guy was *required to*.

With a stopped clock, I'm doing the exact same thing. With a running clock, I'm stopping it and having someone retrieve the ball.

If the ball was back in the crowd and not available, that changes everything. Perhaps someone could post the video. But if the ball is available, and nobody moves to pick it up, do we start the count at some point? I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerNHCMqL5s

Ball rolls out of sight behind the stanchion. Impossible to say whether it was ever "unavailable" or not.

Within reach? In high school games where the clock is running, I will start a count at some point. My expectations are different than these guys, though.

No they don't have an infinite amount of time but you must use common sense. In this case I may have blown my whistle and retrieved the ball once it rolled behind the stanchion.

if the ball was under the basket I may have given a few more seconds to see if anyone was going to take control before I started my count. But I wouldn't say, "OH shot made, ball is available for throw in." and then start my count. The clock is stopped, what's the rush?

Again, the clock was stopped. We cannot use a high school expectation for a college situation. This is a college game, not a high school game. I see many officials at that level be very deliberate with their counts when the clock is stopped. Stopping play has other consequences that are not needed when the clock is already stopped.

Peace

Is that what happened?

Most here have said that *in this situation* what they did was correct. You can even see the official direct someone to go get the ball. My guess is that had there been any further delay he would have started a (deliberate) count.

Officiating is part art and part science.

There's probably thousands of officials who get the science right. Those that can also get the art right rise to the top.

I'm out. I can't sing or draw.

When I posted the original question, I thought the ball was lying in plain sight the whole time. It wasn't. But from the reactions of everyone involved, I don't think it was ever not available. With all that in mind, I would have started a count when the first guy stepped out of bounds. I see nothing in the wording that makes that wrong. I also don't see whether the clock is running or stopped has anything to do with this rule. And I also don't know what a "deliberate" count is.

It has everything to do with running/managing a game. Nobody (supervisor, coaches) wants an OOO in this situation. College supervisors do not like "gotcha" type of officials. They want some common sense and "good for the game" officiating decisions. They want officials who would JUDGE the ball was not at anyone's disposal at the point you would have started your count.

Nobody--including your partner(s).

I just watched the video. In a high school game, I'm not even going to have a 5 second count because the clock will be running with under 5 seconds. In any stopped clock game, I'm doing exactly what these guys did.

Starting a count early here isn't doing anyone any good.

In a high school game, if the ball is unavailable, we should stop the clock while it's retrieved. In this play that wouldn't come into play because the basket is with 1.5 and about 3 seconds elapse before it rolls out of sight.

The key is what constitutes early.

This is the first time I recall seeing this issue discussed.

By "early," I simply meant before the player grabbed the ball OOB. I will do this several times a season when players are wandering around. In this case, even if there were 15 seconds left, I'm probably just going to stop the clock and administer the T-I once it rolls out off the court.

If it didn't roll off the court, I'll probably let the new offense waste some time before I'd even consider starting a count.

What he ^^^ said.



My question in terms of starting the count in the ND/SFA situation - and I would ask this after the game if we'd been working together - would be, "What's the rush?" The offense is in a lousy situation and the defense is getting a chance to set up. Nothing in the wording of the rule may make starting the count wrong but as BNR said supervisors aren't looking for "gotcha" officiating, especially in a situation where, in 0:01.5 of game time, one of the teams is about to see its season come to a crushing end. Sometimes there's a difference between being right and being reasonable. Heck, I think the next step before starting the count would've been for the new T to go get the ball and give it to the SFA player.



Deliberate meaning if they're taking "forever" - or what feels like it - to pick up the ball, your five-second count becomes slow and exaggerated. That way if you really really have to call the violation, even Stevie Wonder in the last row can say, "Yeah, they took a long time to get the ball in. I get why they called it."

As to the first part, it depends which side you're on. You say "What's the rush?" ND coach says "What took you so long?"

As for the rest of it, I don't see that any of these are our concern.

ND's coach is happy he got to set up a defense, he's not asking what took so long.

It is if you have supervisors and NCAA regional observers who say it is. Since you don't work for any NCAA supervisors you can't really judge what is important to them, can you?

Unfortunately the game is our concern. I used to think very black and white for all situations and have adjusted. Some are grey and you figure it out as you go.

You're telling me your NCAA supervisor wants you to give the team who is about to absorb the crushing blow a few extra seconds to set up their half court heave?

He's telling you that you are the only one on this planet that cares.

Have you not noticed you're the only one peeing into a stiff breeze here?

What he is telling you that you work only high school, what they do at the college level is not what you are asked to do at your level. Just like the other things you get you shorts all tied up about, this is one of those things.

This is not a moral issue, the clock is stopped and it it treated differently than a game you would work. Just like you try to defend what you do in your state, people are telling you what goes on at this level and you keep fighting the reality.

Peace

Not peeing into the wind. (This time) I asked the question. I'm told that's how it's handled. That's fine. The part about the team absorbing the defeat was brought up afterward. That's the part I still find unusual. But that's fine too. I'm done.

Also, I doubt I'd stop the clock in a HS game once the first person started for it and then didn't continue.....the team's losing, the clock's running, they're out of timeouts, why should I help them?

I'd actually be in favor of the NCAA stop clock under a minute rule under NFHS play. Yes, I know that our timers would probably be disastrous with it. Still, I think it would eliminate a lot of other potential problems.

I'd like that for HS also. I've had that thought for quite a while now.

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It's troublesome but less troublesome than you might think. No more than any other issue you come across when HS students handle the table. If I'm going to have a problem in a NYC GV game it's usually on that first FG when the clock is at 0:59.9 or less because the kids forget (yes, we remind them). I actually have more problems during BV - i.e., NFHS - games because those kids either work the table for GV as well and they get the rules mixed up or they're so used to watching NBA games they stop the clock after every made FG under 2:00 in each quarter. In the latter situation I'll smile and say to the timer, "Do you want to go home tonight? Because I do."