Duke/Virginia PC/B call
 

There are several things to talk about in this play. At the 9 minute mark of the 3rd quarter, there is a PC/B play. As I saw it live, I had a pc. However upon further review, I see that the C points for a pc, but the L indicates a block. [If memory serves, there are no blarges in the women's ncaa game.] My questions are: 1) CC/ICC, and 2) whose primary.

Triple L,

You forgot to note in your title that this was a UVA/Duke Women's game.

I don't think Jeff posts those. :)

No I do not and I also do not post very local coverage either if that is the case. Now if someone has an idea of how I can get the ACC Network type coverage or even the PAC-10 Network coverage I am more than happy to start posting those situations.

Right now everything I post is from TV feeds and some ESPN feeds.

Peace

Here's the play...


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As to the questions/observations...in order:

*Lcubed, you're correct. Blarges do not exist in NCAAW. (A.R. 174: When the officials signal simultaneously, they shall get together and agree to give the call to the official who had the play originate in his/her primary. When the officials disagree that the fouls occurred simultaneously, they shall determine which foul occurred first. Once a decision is reached, that foul is reported to the official scorer and the appropriate penalty is assessed)

*This was a block so it was an ICC.

*As to whose primary it is, there's this from the Women's CCA manual:

Mea culpa, I did forget to include that caveat. Thanks to JMF!

Okay, it wasn't a blarge by mechanic, but I can assume that you're taught to withhold a preliminary.

I said live it looked to be a charge. On replay, I have a block. The defender didn't establish LGP prior to the beginning of the shooter's motion. ICC - I agree.

According to NCAAW mechanics, this play was then the C's all the way. In the clip, the L has his eyes on the play all the way to the end. If the C is following the ball into the paint, he had to pick up the defender late. I would assume that this play would be discussed in the postgame.

That's not the criterion. The correct criterion is LGP prior to the shooter leaving the floor. (and that's the criterion in NCAAM as well, I think)

No, this is L's call. The drive was down the lane.

And, I know it's going to be obvious, but what is "ICC?"

ICC = Incorrect call.

I thought that the call should have been the lead's.

You beat me to this. I disagreed with every point that L^3 just listed.

Upon repeated viewings, I have the defender in position before the offensive player goes airborne (both feet leave the floor), so the correct call is a charging foul.
Based upon the mechanics for NCAAW this would be the Lead's primary call. Unfortunately, the Lead made the wrong decision. I feel that this is a failure of the system. The is no way that the Lead can look through the body of the defender to see when the offensive play goes airborne. On the other hand, the C has a wonderful open-look at this action. Not surprisingly, the C signaled a charge. The NCAAW need to rethink the mechanic for this type of action.

The defendant was stationary upon contact but was still moving when A1 went airborne, imo.

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This isn't a screening play. Being "stationary" is not required and the player is allowed to be moving at the time of contact. The rules allow the defender to jump into the air vertically, or even turn or duck to absorb contact.

Please be precise, if you are going to make a judgment on this play. It's only about reaching a position on the court before the opponent becomes airborne. Don't fall into the misguided thinking that the defender must be a perfectly still statue to take a charge.

This is the leads primary call in NCAAM too. Contact was with a secondary defender on a play going to the basket, and in the lane. The only difference between men and women is we would have reported both fouls, and gone to the arrow to determine whose ball.

The Case Of The Stationary Basketball Player ...
 

... says Perry Mason.

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(I realize that an obsolete definition of defendant is defender, but the word still seemed funny in it's context.)

Small nit, you go to POI, which may be the arrow. (In this case it would be)

Yes, I know what the rule is. I was speaking specifically about the play in the video. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

That defender was still sliding into place when the offensive player went airborne. And that's why the Lead called a block

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I think that it's very close and either call would be supported. I have the feet down just as the offensive player is leaving the floor, but the body is still straightening up over the feet.

This is clearly a block to me. Moving over while the shooter was airborne. Easy call if you ask me.

Peace

As Bob said, this play was the L's. If he had something in front of him which prevented him from seeing it then the C and/or the T would jump in after waiting a beat. I had one like this a few weeks ago. Big crash, no whistle and my first thought - I was the T - was, "Holy %*$&! That girl got hammered!" Then made the call. L thanked me afterwards because she got blocked out.

In an ideal world no one in the OP would have given a preliminary signal. They didn't seem to discuss it much on the court so my guess is the L wasn't 150% sure so he gave it up - possibly they had similar plays that were called blocks earlier and he went with that flow, though he was correct here. I'm thinking they would have discussed it in the locker room and an observer may have brought it up as well.

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I don't understand how this factors into the analysis. How does it affect your call? Is it relevant in college? I don't see how it would be germane in HS, where LGP requires only two feet touching the court and the front of the torso facing the opponent. Or am I missing something?

The endline view (from behind the Lead) tells me all I need to know.

The whole point of my earlier post was that the endline view is the worst look for this particular play as one is shielded from seeing the offensive player's feet.

The camera view from the sideline seems to be a better look to me.

It doesn't, really. At least it doesn't based on a conversation with the SRE about another play posted on the forum two years ago. To paraphrase his thoughts (in no particular order)...

*Defenders aren't required to become statues once their feet hit the ground. It's not a fair expectation.
*Every player has their own vertical plane and they're allowed to rise within that plane. That includes straightening up.
*If their body moves forward outside their vertical plane and there's contact, they've committed a foul.

Again, that's me paraphrasing him.

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For the record, I'm not the SRE and I've never spoken to that person, but my thoughts are directly in line with those. Too many officials over penalize defenders.

What does "SRE" mean?

Say The Secret Word ...
 

International Code Council.

Society of Reliability Engineers.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., and Choo Choo Charlie, belong to both of these organizations.

Secretary rules editor, Jon Levinson

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Why do you insist on cluttering up meaningful conversation with your nonsense? So annoying...

As a crew, the C and L should have held their preliminary signals and determined the primary official, especially with a double whistle. What was the final call?

Sincere question.
I'm not convinced the defense was but if the defense was already in the path when the offensive player went air born then the extra sideways movement is irrelevant correct?

It depends on whether that "extra sideways movement" created contact that would not have existed without it. (said without watching the play) In most cases, any movement more than just a little bit will be deemed to have done so (and, thus, create a defensive foul)