Continuous/Upward Motion (Video)
 

What does everyone think about this play?

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Peace

I think it was very generous.

The foul was definitely after he gathered!
:D

We had a few discussions on this forum centering around the act of shooting and gathering the ball. I consistently argued that the gather had nothing to do with starting the act of shooting, but that sentiment wasn't shared by several posters.

And One ...
 

In my high school game, he's in the act of shooting.

NFHS 4-11-2: If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she
is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or
stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any
activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual
throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

At what point do you think that the player has started a try for goal?

Continuous Motion ...
 

At around the eleven second mark, the defender first puts his hand on the ball (legal), and then his opponent's hand (legal), and then his hand moves up to the wrist (illegal contact) of the ball handler, who had already started his the usual throwing motion when the illegal contact (foul) occurred. Hey, the commentators called it a "great call", and they're always correct. They're what you call experts. Right?

And this one should continue to fuel that debate. He definitely had gathered when the foul occurred, but...was he on his way up at that point? Had he started his "habitual shooting motion"? I believe he did...I'd score it and shoot one.

once you've gathered the ball in layup steps, it's in the act. criminal to take points off the board for the fouled time with a foul call when you can help it.

HS shooting. NCAAM not shooting.

I don't understand all this talk about "gathering".

Billy cited the rule, and the word "gather", nor any other form of the word, appears. It's all about the official's judgment on when the player started the shooting motion.

Some will say he started that motion, some will say he hasn't. But thinking about it in terms of when he gathered the ball seems incorrect.

Other Rule Sets ...
 

Definitely not a NFHS rule but, maybe, it may be, or might have been, a NCAA, or NBA, rule?

The original video was an NCAA game.

Of course, being a journeyman high school basketball official, I know more about Epistemology than I do about NCAA basketball rules.

This is true. My apologies.

NCAAM
Rule 5 Art 10
The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player's hand. the arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he may be making an attempt.

Taking a step after the foul then attempting a shot is clearly not a motion preceding the release of the ball on a try. There have also been a video or 2 released showing this exact type of play and the required adjudication is not a shooting foul.

Rules also have philosophies. The actual rule never defines when the continuous motion starts and never has to my understanding. But there has been illustrations over the years (Used to be a older version of S&I book).

But to me you cannot start the motion until you gather or we are splitting hairs. But this was also a college play where they have defined more as to what should be a shot with the "upward motion" philosophy. I do not like that rule, but to me this player was not in his upward motion before the foul.

Peace

I think its possible, if not likely, that the officials pass on the initial foul that most are probably seeing. The last contact by 15 is, to me, clearly on the way up to the hoop, after all steps have been taken. If that's the one they decide to penalize, then I think there's no issue here. Based on when the officials react in the video, it seems likely to me that that is the call they are making.

I guess it's like pornography...

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

If a coach or observer asked why it is/was a shooting foul, my response would be "in my judgment the player had started his shooting motion." Not "the" shooting motion, but "his" shooting motion. See 4-41-3... "the try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

I suppose "habitually" could be based on a general idea of how a shot is attempted, and not for that particular shooter. I don't know, so all I can do is make the call based on my judgment.

Just another reason why our jobs can be so difficult. And until the NFHS gets more specific with their definition of shooting motion we're stuck with leaving ourselves open to ridicule and second-guessing.

The term "gather" is so that we can use help us be more consistent, that is all. But that does not mean we still do not have to referee. There are times when the gather is not used to shoot. You still have to determine if they are going right to the basket or using that extra step to get through the defense.

I just think we have historically taken away more shots than we should and these video examples have helped me do a better job in this area.

Peace

Great Minds Think Alike ...
 

And on a high school level, our local interpreter has basically expressed the same sentiment.

Three thoughts come to my mind (a dangerous place to linger) as I ponder the discussion regarding the issue proposed by the OP:
1) "Upward motion" is no longer relevant--not anymore at least from what I've heard regarding NCAAM and never was in NFHS. Right?
2) I'm still contemplating a point I brought up several years ago, that what we're really discussing here isn't "continuous motion", but "act of shooting." I don't expect anyone to care about what I might or might not consider the difference, but I'm trying for my own self to determine if that approach lends clarity to the issue of when the act of shooting began.
3) The "gather", if that term is used, is simply an attempt to make concrete in the mind an action in the act of shooting that otherwise might remain abstract and unreal. Critics of the use of that term could be challenged to come up with another word to make this abstract concept a concrete benchmark in as effective a way. I'm open for other words to do it.
I thank the original poster for this opportunity to think today. :)

In HS you are correct. In NCAAM you are not. All the interpretations I have come across has to do with the motion of the ball as the deciding factor whether a shot is being attempted or not. Eventually I think the rules committee will get this right and stop making it so damn complicated. I'm interested in their new rule next year, which wouldn't surprise me at all.

Upward motion still applies in college but it no longer applies to if we give a block or charge. It still applies to shooting fouls as of last year according to all the videos. I have not seen much this year addressing a change but other language still applies.

Peace

Ahhhhh, thank you for updating me on that! I see the difference between what I thought and what you're talking about now.

You (probably) have to gather before you can begin the try, but just because you gather doesn't mean you have started the try.

And, just because historically too many have been "waved off" doesn't mean that all benefit of the doubt should go to the offense.

Agree.

AR 111 NCAA men and rules require arms to be going up…raising the ball. "This act of shooting motion does not include picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball or advancing on the court with one or both feet."

Well in NF Rules the gather is only used as a line of demarcation. Outside of that we have not specific reference to when we start the habitual motion. But in college (Men's') they want this upward motion standard. I think a lot of officials try not to split hairs.

Peace

This one looks like the official is letting the offensive player play through some initial contact, but then calls the continued contact on the arm and judges it to be on the shot. I would count this basket 100/100. And 95/100 times the opposing coach would make some reference to the NBA. :rolleyes:

NCAA-M: In regular speed I thought it was clearly before the act of shooting (arms in the upward motion), however the last view in slow motion, shows #15 with his hand on the ball and then taking it off and striking the arm as the shooter is attempting to rise his arms to shoot. I actually really like that this was counted (again, using NCAA-M) based on the officials view. I wouldn't argue either way, but I agree/side with the official on this.

Our association wants shots if the player has gathere the ball. So unless the player does something other than shoot after te foul, you better be administering free throws. (NFHS)

It'd s good starting point but I don't think it should be an absolute.

But to me you cannot start the motion until you gather or we are splitting hairs.


A player can shoot without gathering... but in this particular "running back move" he is/has to gather first, since he's trying to cover so much ground.
I do like "his shooting motion" better. It doesn't limit the official?
In this video, I'd say this player is in his "get to the rim" motion and not yet in the "act of shooting" motion.
Gathering is part of the attack and could even lead to a pass or more likely: drawing a foul. The shot isn't always the goal of a gather. "Gather" seems to give too much credit to the ball handler and even limits the official in my opinion.

Isn't the rule the same again?

I believe the rule is (substantially) the same (and I know the NCAAM rule is the same as the NCAAW rule), but I think NCAAM have interpreted "normal throwing motion..." as requiring "upward movement."

from the NCAA book:

Section 8. Continuous Motion
Continuous motion applies to a try for field goal or free throw, but shall have
no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval that
begins when the normal throwing movement starts a try or with the touching
on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

Not really. The NCAA requires "upward motion" to be considered in the act of shooting.

Peace