Here's some rules to compare

[Mark Padgett]

Here's a rules matrix for our local kids rec league. I think it shows a good balance.

http://www.tigardbasketball.org/docl...s%20Matrix.pdf

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Here's a rules matrix for our local kids rec league.

I hate the no zone defense rule. I understand the reason, to teach kids how to play man to man defense, but when my daughter played under such rules she would occasionally leave her man to help a teammate who got beat and then she would be called for a zone defense violation. That was one of the reasons why we decided to switch from recreation ball to a travel team the next season.

Another reason was that our recreation program had a no free throw policy (shorter side courts in the gymnasium didn't have lane lanes painted on the floor). She would get hammered going to the basket and not get any free throws, just a throwin from under the basket.

It wasn't a total waste of time. She had a great coach, and made some new friends, but the move over to travel the next season was the right move.

[just another ref]

No zone defense rule is counterproductive, especially if doubling the ball is not allowed. It turns into a game of one on one involving only the best two players.

[Mr.C]

I like the running time for 3rd and 4th grade. I'm going to suggest that we go to that down here. We get complaints often about not calling enough violations. Although I think the majority of our group does an excellent job in that area, more would probably be called if the clock was running. Not many at a watching young beginners play can stomach an hour and 10 minute game of traveling and double dribble.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

I like the running time for 3rd and 4th grade. I'm going to suggest that we go to that down here. We get complaints often about not calling enough violations. Although I think the majority of our group does an excellent job in that area, more would probably be called if the clock was running. Not many at a watching young beginners play can stomach an hour and 10 minute game of traveling and double dribble.

3rd and 4th grade? Even with a running clock if you called all the violations the parents wanted you to call, it would be 25 minutes of throw-in plays.

[Mr.C]

actually the 4th grade games have gotten a lot "cleaner" in the last year or two----can't say the same for the 3rd grade games. But when you are trying to get 3 in on a school night, running time would be the way to go. And as for parents, they are the same everywhere. No rules knowledge and less common sense!

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Adam

3rd and 4th grade? Even with a running clock if you called all the violations the parents wanted you to call, it would be 25 minutes of throw-in plays.

This.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No zone defense rule is counterproductive, especially if doubling the ball is not allowed. It turns into a game of one on one involving only the best two players.

Our one Rec League allows the zone D and it does manage to keep some of the lessor teams in the game longer.....plus, it's a referees friend (tick, tick, tick; creates decent flow; less fouls; less one-on-one).

[just another ref]

The fact is, at this age, it is often difficult to tell what kind of defense they're playing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mr.C

actually the 4th grade games have gotten a lot "cleaner" in the last year or two----can't say the same for the 3rd grade games. But when you are trying to get 3 in on a school night, running time would be the way to go. And as for parents, they are the same everywhere. No rules knowledge and less common sense!

I love running clocks in these games for this reason, but I'm still not calling violations as tightly as I do in high school. If they want officials who do so, they can find someone else.

Most around here, though, don't; except for the occasional Dad who thinks that since his son is playing in March or April he can act like coach Krewshawoooski.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The fact is, at this age, it is often difficult to tell what kind of defense they're playing.

I think the *purpose* of no zone rules is that one cannot learn to play zone properly without first learning to play man. It's a good *development* rule. (The varsity coach at my high school forbid the freshman teams from playing zone for the first part of the season for exactly this reason.)

And I think the *purpose* of the no double team rule is to enable players to pass and move the ball rather than to have traps all the time and no ability to run an offense. (And to prevent the aggressive double team of weaker players who have no chance to do anything.) But when winning becomes more important than development (which sadly seems to happen in most kids sports - and sometimes the younger they are the worse it is), it gets mushy. And coaches caring more about winning than developing give the ball to the best player for one and one rather than actually trying to teach team basketball.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I think the *purpose* of no zone rules is that one cannot learn to play zone properly without first learning to play man. It's a good *development* rule. (The varsity coach at my high school forbid the freshman teams from playing zone for the first part of the season for exactly this reason.)

And I think the *purpose* of the no double team rule is to enable players to pass and move the ball rather than to have traps all the time and no ability to run an offense. (And to prevent the aggressive double team of weaker players who have no chance to do anything.) But when winning becomes more important than development (which sadly seems to happen in most kids sports - and sometimes the younger they are the worse it is), it gets mushy. And coaches caring more about winning than developing give the ball to the best player for one and one rather than actually trying to teach team basketball.

It's so rare to have everyone in a rec league on the same page. Everything from the dad who gives equal playing time to every kid to the dude whos ego is directly correlated to whether or not his team wins the 4th grade girls trophy.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I think the *purpose* of no zone rules is that one cannot learn to play zone properly without first learning to play man. It's a good *development* rule. (The varsity coach at my high school forbid the freshman teams from playing zone for the first part of the season for exactly this reason.)

Another purpose is that can clog up the middle and forces many kids to shoot from a range that is too far for them to shoot with good form. With man-to-man, there will be openings in the middle. Players are more likely to learn to screen, dribble, penetrate, kick out. Against a zone, they just shoot from 20' when they should be learning to shoot from 10' or less.

[RefsNCoaches]

The youth league that I work with has similar rules. Some differences being only giving 4 full timeouts for the game with 1 additional granted for OT.

For 3/4 grade, they must play M2M and they have an isolation rule in place if the better player(s) take all the shots. If the same player takes a shot on three consecutive offensive trips trips the 3rd shot is whistled dead and a warning is given. If the same player takes a 4th shot we whistle a T and the other team gets the two FTs and the ball. (really, I think it would be more deterrent if given 2 points and the ball).

Now within that, offensive rebounds and immediate put-backs do not fall under this rule..it's something more assessed as they set up in their half court sets. The idea is that they get all players involved with ball movement.

At 5/6th, 7/8th grade it's wide open basketball with the exception of no press until the final 2 minutes of the game and last minute of 2 minute OT period. Also, no press if up by 10 or more.

Our HS league (9th-11th) is straight NFHS rules with the only exception being 20 point - no press rule.

[Kansas Ref]

For the 4th 5th grades--Is there "defense in the backcourt" allowed? Or do you task the 4th/5th graders to bring the ball up against defensive pressure?