Five Second, while holding in college
 

Did a college game tonight, but I'm primarily a H.S. official. I love the 30 second shot clock and I'm ok with the new "five second" closely guarded rule = holding only.... The fact that the best ball handler can dribble without giving it up to an average ball handler for most-if-not all of the possession is good and ideally the shorter shot clock render the five second call unnecessary...? However, will this make college officials lazy and avoid counting at all?
Ole Miss v Vandy 1:30 left in the game (full 30 sec. shot clock).
Guard holds the ball- closely guarded for 11 seconds and never even got a count started...
Maybe it'll be a POE next season?

Point of Interruption??

My bad: POE

Just because you saw an official not counting doesn't mean the new rule is making college officials (plural) lazy.

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Here's the play...

And yeah, there's a five-second closely guarded count that went uncounted.


<iframe width="960" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6hHlfzb9TRY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Your response seems to indicate you think something different or at least have some other possible justification... Do tell!
What would you call a no count after 11-12 seconds?
Are they unsure of when to count?
Are they ignoring the rule?
Did the L forget the rule?
Does the L think it's not closely guarded?
Is it too late in the game to be concerned with this rule?




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High School officials do not count properly and the rule has been the same for years. I have seen that very same thing in multiple high school games just this year even if there is a dribble. Not sure why there he not a count at all either, but not unusual in basketball at any level.

Peace

Gender Issues ???
 

Three feet, or six feet, for closely guarded in men's college basketball?

Closely guarded dribbling, and holding; or just holding, in men's college basketball?

Five Second Rule ...
 

Agree. It's been a local point of emphasis here for many years. It's not just new officials, it's also grizzled state tournament veterans.

Peter Webb, the IAABO Coordinator of Interpreters, observed our state tournament finals a few years ago, and tournament officials were highly criticized by him for not visibly counting when they were supposed to.

It is 6 feet only when they are holding the ball. No closely guarded with a dribble anymore. The last part is a new rule for this year.

I cannot believe there was no count in the video.

Peace

Billy, it's the same in NCAAW and NCAAM as of this season: six feet only when holding the ball in the frontcourt.

Three Feet ???
 

Six feet for NCAA Women?

Was it ever three feet for holding for NCAA Women (or anybody, for that matter)?

Our prep school teams use hybrid NCAA/NFHS rules, and we've been told to call closely guarded for three feet, holding only, in the frontcourt, only for our girls prep games.

Are we in error?

Connecticut Girls Prep School: 5-second closely-guarded count (3 feet) applies only to player who is holding the ball in the frontcourt.

Three feet for women.

Peace

Fight To The Death ???
 

Do I flip a coin? Phone a friend?

'

You obviously did not read or understand his post. It was very clear to me and others if you were not always trying to dissect something.

Peace

Nope. 6 feet for men's and women's.

Clear ???
 

What's hard to understand about JetMetFan's post? What's not clear about JetMetFan's post? In regard to my questions about the distance for closely guarded in the college game, JetMetFan replies that, in both mens, and womens, college basketball, it's six feet, for holding, in the frontcourt. The "and" in his answer implied that it was the same for both gender rule sets.

As a high school only official, JRutledge's answer (three feet for women), and JetMetFan's answer (six feet for both men and women), confused me. Each individual post was clear, and easy to understand. One has to be correct, and one has to be incorrect. That's what confused me. Two different answers.

And now, I'm really confused:

Two for six feet? One for three feet? Who's an official ignorant in NCAA rules (namely me) to believe? Do I start a poll?

Changes made to NCAA Women's as of 2014 season.
The closely guarded rule in the frontcourt remains, however it has been changed to read, “A player holding the ball for five seconds with a defender not exceeding six feet will be a violation.” Previously, the defender had to be within three feet of the offensive player with the ball to force a five second violation.

Six feet holding only in NCAA men & women
Six feet holding or dribbling in NFHS

The OP shows a college player holding a ball closely guarded (within 2 ft.) for 12 seconds without ever even getting a count started. That's lazy, lack of knowledge or total disregard for a rule.

I Second That Emotion (Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, 1967) ...
 

Can I get a second?

As someone who started officiating women's college basketball back in the "Ancient Days" (1974 to be exact), as well as being a USA Basketball Referee in the 1990s, I probably have more experience (time wise with the "Closely Guarded" rule of all five or six rules: NBCofUS&C, NAGWS, NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA, I will finally add my two cents to this thread.

The "Closely Guarded" rule found its way into the NFHS and NCAA Basketball Rules Books from two different directions: 1) NFHS and NCAA Men's from the NBCofUS&C rules set, while 2) the NCAA Women's from the NAGWS (which took it directly from the FIBA rules set) rules set.

I will address the easiest of the two first: NCAA Women's. The FIBA "Closely Guarded" rule has been the same for at least 42 years because the 1974-75 season was my first year officiating women's college basketball so my NAGWS books start with that school year. The rule was: Being guarded (within 3 feet) for five seconds while holding the ball anywhere on the court. NAGWS patterned its rules set on a combination of NBCof US&C and FIBA rules. Its "Closely Guarded" rule was exactly like FIBA's (which has as it distance as one meter) rule. FIBA did not have a 10 second rule for advancing the ball and therefore neither did NAGWS. When the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Committee was formed it adopted the NAGWS "Closely Guarded" rule. And that rule has been the same until the NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Committee amended it to apply only in a team's front court and the distance was expanded to 6 feet, starting with the 2013-14 season.

Until this season the NFHS and NCAA Men's has always been the same. But how did both groups get to the same rule (prior to this season)? You don't want to ask, except that it started before the NBCofUS&C split into the NFHS and NCAA Men's Basketball Rules Committees. But it goes back to days when the front court was divided into the mid-court and the fore-court, and one does not want to even ask about when the five second count was in effect. But it was fun back then and not so simple as it is today.

If I would basketball rules dictator for one day, I would write the "Closely Guarded" rule as such: a) five seconds, b) only holding the ball, and c) only in the Front Court.

So ends the history lesson.

MTD, Sr.

What's clear is that you were flat out WRONG. Now do you have the manhood to admit it for once in your life or will we be subject to more double-speak?

Why don't you come out here and see what real manhood is? Because all that crap you love to talk would get you run out of here. Don't believe me, ask your friend from that way. Something tells me they would eat you alive.

Peace

Who is they? College guys I work with properly count, as do I.

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Did you see the OP and the video?
"They" are the officials in the video and referenced in the OP... The L should have a count sometime before the 12 seconds lapsed. Heck, the defender is wondering what he has to do - so he puts his hand on the offensive player...

What possible justification could there be for this?
Allowing him to hold for five and then starting the count would be wrong; but 12 seconds and no count is just... goofy!

Notice there's still no admission from Rut that he was dead wrong.
He's running his playbook: Dodge the question, change the topic, point a finger elsewhere, do anything to distract people from the fact at hand.

It is crystal clear that his ego just can't take it.

One Yard, Or Two Yards ???
 

JRutledge: You've read the other posts, so what's your answer for NCAA Women closely guarded (holding only, frontcourt only), three feet, or six feet?

If you were indeed mistaken, there's nothing wrong with making a mistake. We all make them. I make a lot of them.

It's real easy to correct a mistake. Just say, "I made a mistake", amend the mistake, and move on. There's no shame in that.

We can all learn from our own mistakes, and from the mistakes of others, especially when we get the error corrected.

There is nothing to admit dumbazz. I do not work women's college basketball.
How you like them apples. I don't have to like someone I know. ;)

Peace

Same here. I cannot think of a time or situations where I did not see a count. Not the distance might be in question, but certainly not the count.

Peace

I do not work women's college basketball, but it used to be 3 feet. The rulebooks are separate, but if you read Jet's post, it was IMO obvious what he was saying. He works women's basketball, I do not.

Peace

Who justified it? You're painting all college officials with a broad brush based on one official. What does that one official have to do with me and other officials who do it properly?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder concerning college officials.

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Who really cares? Seriously.

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He is probably like a lot of people here. When they see a college official do something, they lump them all together. But if high school only official does something, they are still working the righteous level. It is kind of funny if you ask me when I see a lot of individuals at the high school level cannot get a rule right, no one says, "Those darn high school officials just ignore the rules."

Peace

He can talk to my patch. ;)

Peace

I more concerned about the stupid "not a closely guarded situation signal". I remember when the Men's and Women's CCA Manuals adopted it. I didn't use when I was a college official and I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) have used the signal. I had a college coach ask me why I wasn't using the "not a closely guarded situation signal" because he couldn't tell if I had a closely guarded situation. I told him that I didn't need to and he asked why. I told him that if I am visibly counting I have a closely guarded situation and if I am not visibly counting I do not have a closely guarded situation. He gave me a puzzled look and then a light bulb lit up in his head, and he said that that made sense.

MTD, Sr.

I think that signal is good when players are just standing still and not quite standing close enough. I have used this signal when coaches felt I should be counting. It gives information and more of our signals should give information.

Peace

Maybe the play in the OP is not something their supervisor wants called?

I will use the "not closely guarded" signal when in a situation where a coach or player may think there should be closely-guarded count, as a way to communicate that yes... I am paying attention.

I'll also use it if I have a count, and then the dribbler moves away from the defender or the defender backs off.

I don't see a problem with using it as a means to communicate. The book doesn't say we should talk players out of trouble, but we do it anyway.

When I first started officiating I was taught by a very good H.S. basketball official: You have nothing until you have something. If I don't have a closely guarded situation I have nothing until I have a closely guarded situation and then I have something.

MTD, Sr.

Yes but people question that we should have a count in many situations and certainly in the HS game where we do not have shot clock. Again, we cannot often tell everyone why we are doing something, this is an opportunity to do so during live ball.

Peace

I totally understand that way of thinking. However, I don't understand why that signal is a problem.

Obvious ...
 

Very obvious. NCAA Women, and NCAA Men, are the same. Six feet. Holding. Frontcourt.

Also, very obvious. NCAA Women. Three feet.

Both clear. Both obvious. Both easy to understand. Both can't be correct. One must be incorrect.

Nothing Until I Have Something ...
 

Connecticut IAABO (not international IAABO) went to a not closely guarded signal about ten years ago, then we switched back to not using the signal about five years ago.

"Who justified it?" I have no idea, but I'm sure there is some reasoning...
I think I asked a question: Do you think? Perhaps you're the one with the problem... You're taking the thread personal.
I watch college officials to learn, which is why I saw this.
The question is about the new rule perhaps making college officials lazy... I can't imagine another reason why this would get over looked to the tune of 12 seconds?
If it was a high school change and this happen - I'd say the same.

I don't know what you're talking about, and it sounds like you don't either...
Check the OP and watch the video and see what you think of the CG situation.
I love all basketball officials - even you man!

Do you pregame this?
Would it be odd to be in a game where one official is and the other(s) aren't?
Also, does this communicate that we're alert and engaged?

No

I've never had anyone, partner, observer, or otherwise, tell me if was wrong or odd or bad.

Maybe, maybe not. But I've yet to hear it's a problem or bad idea. If I do, then I'll adjust.

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Billy, he's never going to say he was wrong. :rolleyes: Better to just leave it alone.

You're obviously stuck on this one official as a representative of all officials.

I'm a college and I use the mechanic. I just looked at the video from my last game and I used it 7 seconds into the game, then again 4 seconds later, then my crew chief 7 seconds later; three times on the first possession of the game.

Why don't you ask one of your mentors who is a college official if he is lazy? Why don't you send an email to the official in question and ask him why he doesn't use it? Why ask random folks who had nothing to do with that official or that game?

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You seem stuck.
The OP wasn't about one official, though now that you're stuck on it; I think I see how you got that from the OP.
The OP was about closely guarded five seconds and my question was; is the new rule perhaps to blame for this blatant overlooking of the obvious. Now, you may feel like this is an insult to the game officials... wasn't m intent!
I'm sure these are excellent officials and I can't imagine why they aren't counting?
BTW: I started the post off by saying I worked college on Saturday. I watch other officials to learn and happen to see this - figured it'd make for a good discussion... didn't know you'd read it as an indictment on every official that works college?

Billy, we (NCAAW) were three feet/holding anywhere on the court for a few seasons until 2013-14. The rules committee changed to six feet/frontcourt only that season and gave the following rationale:

The biggest reason I don't use the "not closely guarded signal"? I am 64 years old and it takes energy to have to hold my arms out and that is energy that I can use to "run" up and down the court, :p.

MTD, Sr.

A couple things. I said that Jet's post was clear. It was. He knows women's rules. He spoke on the topic he has made it very clear he knows and does on a regular basis. I never disagreed with his post or said he was wrong or said my post was right either. Actually I did not even see his post when I responded to you the first time. I never even suggested I was right. I said what I knew the rule to be and Jet made is position very clear. I said nothing and basically have been ignoring you because you tend to major in the minors a lot on this site and seemingly in your officiating, so I left it alone. If you do not trust Jet on his knowledge of women's basketball, then you really have not been paying attention to his posts for some time now. He often is spot on with what is going on at that level from what supervisors say and what that level focuses on. I work Men's college and usually my games are after the women's games. I tend to not watch them often as I am worried about my games, I know those rules and have to adjudicate those rules on the men's side. I know of many of the differences, but not all of them. That is why I said to you, Jet's post was clear. But as usual that was not good enough for you as usual. I am surprised you did post a silly picture that you found on the internet when you can not only look up these rules on the NCAA website, but you can look in the back of your own rulebook and see the differences. If everything has to be spelled out for you, well then that is why many other questions you have never get answered.

Peace

Direct Opposition ...
 

Disagreed? Literally, true. Wrong? Literally, true. Those words were never posted.

This post (above) was in direct opposition to JetMetFan's post.

One post was in error. Maybe it should have been acknowledged by the poster as being incorrect, once said poster realized that he was wrong. That's what I, and many other Forum members would have done.

The Forum ...
 

True, but I've also got a great resource here on the Forum, often getting a reliable answer in a matter of minutes.

I initially believed JRutledge's post (three feet) to be true because we use three feet for girls prep school games here in Connecticut.

What is your point? JMF is an NCAA Women's official; you should know that by now and you should know his rules citation for women is more reliable than Jeff's. Why should anything else matter? If you read conflicting information here, then do your own due diligence instead of relying on other people to do it for you.

As usual you are focused on the most unimportant part of the conversation.

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This thread has so many examples of the worst in Internet message boards. OP, you clearly attempted to indict most or all college officials for ignoring a rule with a single example of the rule being ignored. The plural of anecdote is not data. You offended several of the college officials who frequent this board.

Then another longtime member was wrong about something". No big deal and no shame on him; it was from a rule set he doesn't use because he doesn't work women's college basketball. Rather than own it, he attempts several times to obfuscate it. Just own it and move on.

Here's all we needed to respond to the OP: Yes, this play needed a count, and the official erred in not doing so. It's possible his assigner doesn't want that called. No, this one example doesn't mean this is being widely ignored and several experienced members have assured you that they don't see it being ignored. Next time, don't try to paint with such a broad brush unless you can back it up.

We've got a great community here with so much experience and many levels. I hate when these discussions devolve into something like this.

Well stated. Many of our originally posted questions get off on wild tangent.


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Funny you did not seem to read the post that said that Jet's post was clear and Jet is knowledgeable about women's college ball. And as stated again, you can find the dumbest references to other things but cannot look in the back of the rulebook on page 75 (2015-2016 Major Basketball Rules Differences) that states the difference, but you act ignit like you need our information on this site to know the answer. Actually the NF Rulebook only references women's basketball and does not even reference Men's rules on this issue as the closely guarded rule changed in Men's basketball.

But hey, you major in the minors. How about acknowledging you do not know how to look up this information? No, please don't because I honestly do not care what you say on the matter or admit. You are doing what you typically do.

Peace

can't we all just get along?!?!?!

Probably not.