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Sharpshooternes Sat Jan 30, 2016 04:05pm
Vid request Travel Iowa State and Texas A And M
 
:45 left in second half. Amazing this was missed at this level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JRutledge Sat Jan 30, 2016 04:13pm
That was a travel. The only explanation is that the official was looking through is back or felt the ball was blocked. But that did not happen and this was a big miss.

Peace

JetMetFan Sat Jan 30, 2016 07:46pm
Here's the play...


<iframe width="960" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lnVFhirLTVI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BillyMac Sat Jan 30, 2016 09:11pm
A Little Traveling Music Please (Jackie Gleason) ...
 
NFHS: Travel. The pivot foot is lifted and returned to the floor before the ball is released for a shot or a pass.

Cole4088 Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:16pm
I've watched it a few times and can't clearly tell but it kind of looks as if he bounces it off the defenders right shoulder. That then would negate the travel right?

JRutledge Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole4088 (Post 978794)
I've watched it a few times and can't clearly tell but it kind of looks as if he bounces it off the defenders right shoulder. That then would negate the travel right?
No it would not. The fact he lifted a pivot foot to start a dribble is the violation. The ball hitting the floor is not a factor.

Peace

BigCat Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole4088 (Post 978794)
I've watched it a few times and can't clearly tell but it kind of looks as if he bounces it off the defenders right shoulder. That then would negate the travel right?
Yes it would negate the travel. Throwing the ball off of the other players shoulder allows him to go get it, start another dribble etc.

In the video the player jumps to shoot and simply drops the ball. At this moment there is nothing to call. When he catches it first the drop is considered a dribble. Illegal to start a dribble with pivot foot in air.

griblets Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978797)
In the video the player jumps to shoot and simply drops the ball. At this moment there is nothing to call. When he catches it first the drop is considered a dribble. Illegal to start a dribble with pivot foot in air.
The instant he started a dribble after lifting his pivot foot is when the travel occurs. It has nothing to do with him being first to touch it.

BigCat Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by griblets (Post 978798)
The instant he started a dribble after lifting his pivot foot is when the travel occurs. It has nothing to do with him being first to touch it.
He jumped to shoot and then dropped it. It is not a dribble until he touches it again. If his teammate comes to get it, it is a pass. It has everything to do with him being first to touch it. 4.44.3,4.15.4c, 9.5.

What happens after the drop determines if it is a dribble, or pass.

BillyMac Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:27pm
Illegal Dribble ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978797)
Throwing the ball off of the other players shoulder allows him to go get it, start another dribble etc.
Are you sure?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Did he lose control because of the touch by an opponent? Did he lose control because of a pass or a fumble that was then touched by another player? Or did he lose control because he dropped the ball?

BillyMac Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:30pm
From The List ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978801)
He jumped to shoot and then dropped it.
When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

BigCat Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978802)
Are you sure?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Did he lose control because of the touch by an opponent? Did he lose control because of a pass or a fumble that was then touched by another player? Or did he lose control because he dropped the ball?
I'm sure. If I throw the ball and it hits you it is a pass. I can go get it, dribble again etc.

BigCat Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978803)
When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.
I agree. Giblets stated it was a violation when the ball hit the floor. It is not. Only when offensive player is first to touch it.

9.5 is the play where A1 dribbles, comes to a stop and then throws it off of opponents backboard. Opponents backboard is the same as floor. The play says violation by A1 provided he is first to touch it.

just another ref Sun Jan 31, 2016 01:28am
A second touch is not necessary to define a dribble. If a player releases the ball and, in the judgment of the official, it is not a try or a pass, it is, by default, a dribble. If this happens after the pivot is lifted, the violation occurs when the ball hits the floor.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 31, 2016 01:31am
I had this same play occur last Saturday. I was Lead and the defender blocked the Trail's view of the action. Even though it was outside the 3pt line on the wing, I came with a late whistle and called the violation.

BigCat Sun Jan 31, 2016 01:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 978812)
A second touch is not necessary to define a dribble. If a player releases the ball and, in the judgment of the official, it is not a try or a pass, it is, by default, a dribble. If this happens after the pivot is lifted, the violation occurs when the ball hits the floor.
We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.

just another ref Sun Jan 31, 2016 02:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978814)
We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.
If you can say it's a bad pass and let a teammate come over and pick it up, there's no reason you can't say it's a bad shot and let him pick it up himself.

Nevadaref Sun Jan 31, 2016 02:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978814)
We've been through this one before. I just don't agree w you. The case play9.5 the player has dribbled, stops and throws it off of opponents backboard. The backboard is considered same as floor. It isn't a violation until the player is first to touch it. The floor and backboard considered same. It isn't double dribble in that play when ball hits backboard.

I know you think it is a dribble because it might look like one. However, until the player touches it again it could still be a pass. Albeit a bad one. I think the subsequent first touch is required before you can call it a dribble. We'll continue to disagree on this one.
You might want to read 4.15.4 Situation A which states that it is a violation when the player pushes the ball to the floor.

Camron Rust Sun Jan 31, 2016 02:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978801)
It is not a dribble until he touches it again. If his teammate comes to get it, it is a pass. It has everything to do with him being first to touch it. 4.44.3,4.15.4c, 9.5.

What happens after the drop determines if it is a dribble, or pass.
Incorrect. It is a dribble the moment it leaves his hands being pushed/dropped to the floor. A pass can also start the same way.

You just might not be able to tell which it is right away, but that doesn't change what it is. Sometimes you can tell what it is right away.

If it were any other way, a player who has released the ball on a dribble but hasn't yet touched it after the first bounce couldn't be considered to be in player control....and couldn't commit a player control foul. Do you really think a player who has released the ball on a dribble but before the first touch isn't in player control for that period?

Dad Sun Jan 31, 2016 08:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 978813)
I had this same play occur last Saturday. I was Lead and the defender blocked the Trail's view of the action. Even though it was outside the 3pt line on the wing, I came with a late whistle and called the violation.
I hope it wasn't this same view or you made a bad call.

Dad Sun Jan 31, 2016 09:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 978768)
:45 left in second half. Amazing this was missed at this level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Or was it? So many quick to jump and call this a travel but officials at this level are far more disciplined then to call a travel just because it looked like one.

1) There's no definite knowledge he left the floor before releasing the ball. Sure, it really looks like it, but there is no way to be 100%. Just because you think there is a travel doesn't mean there is one.

2) If the player has any sort of basketball IQ he's trying to throw it off the defender before touching it again. This could've easily happened and we missed it from this angle, just like my first point.

I'm never telling this official he missed a call here. Interesting enough play I may ask him about it after the game, but only because I had a bad view and curious about what happened.

BigCat Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 978812)
A second touch is not necessary to define a dribble. If a player releases the ball and, in the judgment of the official, it is not a try or a pass, it is, by default, a dribble. If this happens after the pivot is lifted, the violation occurs when the ball hits the floor.
This is the part I disagree with. I don't think the moment the ball hits the floor in the video it was, "by default" a dribble. It clearly wasn't a shot and frankly it clearly wasn't a pass as we normally know it. It also wasn't a dribble as we normally know it....he didn't push the ball down to the floor.

Frankly, I've been stuck in the air 3 and a half feet off the ground (or maybe a 1/4 inch)...and when I have dropped the ball I'm just trying to get rid of it before a foot hits the ground. The nearly exact play is in 4.44.3A(d). Player goes up with ball, defender touches it but does not prevent player from releasing ball. Player drops it to floor and touches it first after it bounces. Ruling--ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules...violation for starting dribble with pivot foot in air. I read this as it becomes a violation only when the player is first to touch the ball.

I agree with you that in a conventional situation...a dribble such as in Nevada's palming play or Cameron's example, that the player need not touch it again. I don't think though, in this play, that it becomes a dribble by default when it hits the floor. It's a live ball on the floor and, like in 4.44.3A(d), subsequent events and other rules will tell us what it was or was not. Thx

Also, AR 193 NCAAM says also that it is not a violation until the player is first to touch the ball.

deecee Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:07am
This play, and video angle is tough to (1) see if the ball was released before the right foot left the ground and (2) if it was thrown off the defender.

From the T's standpoint it is also tough to see through the offensive player for defensive contact with the ball.

Tough call for the T, perhaps better call if any for the C or L. From everything I have seen I have a travel but this is not such a slam dunk.

BillyMac Sun Jan 31, 2016 01:28pm
Illegal Dribble ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978804)
I'm sure. If I throw the ball and it hits you it is a pass. I can go get it, dribble again ...
If it's a fumble touched by an opponent, or a deflected pass touched by an opponent, sure go ahead and dribble again, it's legal.

But what if it's not a fumble, nor is it a pass, rather, it's intentionally thrown against a opponent?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

BigCat: I see your point and would probably actually call it your way in a real game, but is the interpretation supported by the written rule? Ask the question, "Why did the player lose control?" Because he intentionally threw it away.

BigCat Sun Jan 31, 2016 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978849)
If it's a fumble touched by an opponent, or a deflected pass touched by an opponent, sure go ahead and dribble again, it's legal.

But what if it's not a fumble, nor is it a pass, rather, it's intentionally thrown against a opponent?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:

ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

BigCat: I see your point and would probably actually call it your way in a real game, but is the interpretation supported by the written rule? Ask the question, "Why did the player lose control?" Because he intentionally threw it away.
An opponent is "another player." Also there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to determine if something is a dribble or pass. I dribble across division line and pick up ball. There is no one on the other side of the court straight across from me. If I throw the ball there to no one it looks like a pass but if I run and get it after it bounces it actually was a dribble. If you are on my team and you run and get it or any other player on court does it is a pass.

There are times when we have to wait to see what happens next to know if a dribble or pass occurred. This video is an example of it. 4.44.3A(d) and Ar 193 support it.

BillyMac Sun Jan 31, 2016 03:14pm
Legal Dribble ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978852)
There are times when we have to wait to see what happens next to know if a dribble or pass occurred.
Agree. But we know what the subsequent play is in the following example. A1 ends his dribble and jumps with both feet off the floor to attempt a jump shot, or a pass, but seeing that it will probably be blocked, he intentionally throws the ball against the defensive player. The ball falls to the floor and it picked up by A1 who dribbles the ball. Legal, or illegal?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the
ball to another player.

BigCat Sun Jan 31, 2016 03:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978853)
Agree. But we know what the subsequent play is in the following example. A1 ends his dribble and jumps with both feet off the floor to attempt a jump shot, or a pass, but seeing that it will probably be blocked, he intentionally throws the ball against the defensive player. The ball falls to the floor and it picked up by A1 who dribbles the ball. Legal, or illegal?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the
ball to another player.
It's legal....and it is considered a pass

BillyMac Sun Jan 31, 2016 04:38pm
Legal ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978853)
Maybe, the intentional throwing of a ball against an opponent can be considered a pass, and then he can, legally, dribble again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978854)
It's legal....and it is considered a pass
I'm convinced. Nice debate. Thanks.

BillyMac Sun Jan 31, 2016 04:41pm
Just For Fun ...
 
When a player gets some air and changes his mind, some funny stuff can happen:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RF3VcagfoZg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

#olderthanilook Sun Jan 31, 2016 04:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 978768)
:45 left in second half. Amazing this was missed at this level.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
#11 definitely traveled by not pushing the ball to the floor to begin his dribble before lifting his pivot foot.

Camron Rust Sun Jan 31, 2016 05:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978856)
Clever, and legal, play.

BillyMac Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:04pm
Always ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 978859)
Clever, and legal, play.
... If one believes that the ball handler shot the ball.

What if the official believes that the ball handler tried to pass the ball off the backboard?

Do officials always consider it a shot when an offensive player throws (from inbounds) a ball off is own backboard? If so, citation please.

deecee Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978966)
... If one believes that the ball handler shot the ball.

What if the official believes that the ball handler tried to pass the ball off the backboard?

Do officials always consider it a shot when an offensive player throws (from inbounds) a ball off is own backboard? If so, citation please.
What would you call when a player throws the ball off his backboard, jumps, catches and then dunks it?

Camron is right. This is clever and legal.

BigCat Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978966)
... If one believes that the ball handler shot the ball.

What if the official believes that the ball handler tried to pass the ball off the backboard?

Do officials always consider it a shot when an offensive player throws (from inbounds) a ball off is own backboard? If so, citation please.
Legal 9.5. AR 105

BillyMac Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:37pm
Pretend It's A High School Game ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978968)
Legal 9.5. AR 105
NFHS citation please (I know that it's a college video).

Commentator: "He passes it to himself".

Not possible, by definition.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the
ball to another player.

So if it's not a pass, and let's say the official deems it not to be a shot, then what is it, and is it legal, and why?

What if he did the same exact thing happened but without the ball hitting the backboard (ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, deemed not to be a shot, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

Or let's say that he does this in the middle of the court and throws the ball cross court (not toward the basket)(ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

I've looked through the travel rule and can't figure why these two examples above are illegal (maybe they're not). They seem illegal, but I can't put my finger on it. So are they legal?

BigCat Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac (Post 978972)
nfhs citation please (i know that it's a college video).
9.5.

bob jenkins Mon Feb 01, 2016 04:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978966)
... If one believes that the ball handler shot the ball.

What if the official believes that the ball handler tried to pass the ball off the backboard?

Do officials always consider it a shot when an offensive player throws (from inbounds) a ball off is own backboard? If so, citation please.
The same answer as when it's come up before. Just like whatever other items you keep raising in hopes(?) that NFHS has clarified.

You can't really prove it, but it's the way to go.

BillyMac Mon Feb 01, 2016 05:12pm
It's The Old Team Equipment Trick ...
 
... Fools 'em every time. (Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 978974)
9.5.
9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard and catches the ball. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

Thanks BigCat. (Of course it doesn't say what the player can legally do after he catches the ball, but it's still a pretty good "general purpose" citation.)

Now let's concentrate on these plays:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978972)
What if he did the same exact thing happened but without the ball hitting the backboard (ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, deemed not to be a shot, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

Or let's say that he does this in the middle of the court and throws the ball cross court (not toward the basket)(ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

I've looked through the travel rule and can't figure why these two examples above are illegal (maybe they're not). They seem illegal, but I can't put my finger on it. So are they legal?
The more I think about it the more legal it becomes. His pivot foot never touches the floor after he becomes airborne. Am I correct that it's legal?

BillyMac Mon Feb 01, 2016 05:17pm
Always Listen To bob ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 978975)
... it's the way to go.
Agree.

Camron Rust Mon Feb 01, 2016 05:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978972)
What if he did the same exact thing happened but without the ball hitting the backboard (ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, deemed not to be a shot, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

Or let's say that he does this in the middle of the court and throws the ball cross court (not toward the basket)(ends dribble, lifts pivot foot (both feet), throws ball into air, catches it while still airborne (player and ball never hit the floor), passes it to another player while airborne)?

I've looked through the travel rule and can't figure why these two examples above are illegal (maybe they're not). They seem illegal, but I can't put my finger on it. So are they legal?
All legal.

Traveling, with the exception of starting a dribble, always occurs when a foot comes down. If the player no longer has control of the ball when landing, they can't have traveled.

This is essentially the same as the case play wherein a player stands still and tosses the ball into the air and catches it....without moving the feet. It is deemed legal.

Dad Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 978980)
... Fools 'em every time. (Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86)



9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard and catches the ball. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

Thanks BigCat. (Of course it doesn't say what the player can legally do after he catches the ball, but it's still a pretty good "general purpose" citation.)

Now let's concentrate on these plays:



The more I think about it the more legal it becomes. His pivot foot never touches the floor after he becomes airborne. Am I correct that it's legal?
You can't pass the ball to yourself. Not sure why you're confusing this play with others plays you're giving.

It clearly says what the player can do after this. Think about it: A dribble picks up the dribble then throws it at something. Then is allowed to catch the ball again. It's basically the same as having a 6th man on the court for passing purposes. If the catch wasn't a travel then starting a dribble definitely isn't going to be traveling.

BillyMac Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:25pm
Illegal Dribble ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 979085)
It clearly says what the player can do after this. Think about it: A dribble picks up the dribble then throws it at something. Then is allowed to catch the ball again. It's basically the same as having a 6th man on the court for passing purposes. If the catch wasn't a travel then starting a dribble definitely isn't going to be traveling.
Travel? How about an illegal dribble?

Clear? The caseplay doesn't even state if the player moves his feet between the throw and the catch. How can that be clear? He can't travel if he doesn't move his feet. It's the same as a player standing, not moving his pivot foot, or either foot, and tossing the ball up in the air a couple of times, which has already been interpreted as a non-call. The catch was never a travel because he never moved his feet. Since this caseplay does not identify the throw as a shot, then the player can only legally begin a new dribble under a few circumstances:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Again, assuming it's not a shot (the caseplay doesn't call it a shot), has the ball touched an opponent; or was it a pass, or fumble, that was then touched by another player? We already know that you can't pass the ball to yourself (or your backboard, you can only pass to another player), so it wasn't a pass, plus it was never touched by another player. It was intentional so it wasn't a fumble, plus, again, it was never touched by another player. Did the ball ever touch an opponent?

Why wouldn't this be an illegal dribble?

Could it be that some interpret a ball thrown at the player's own backboard as always, automatically, being a shot? Where's the rule interpretation for that (NFHS)?

deecee Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:44pm
Billy how many other officials do you need to disagree with you before you accept an answer? The rule/case book doesn't cover every single possible scenario.

IF the player can legally catch the ball then what the heck do you think he/she can do afterwards with the ball?

In your case lets just say it's a shot and move on.

BillyMac Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:48pm
Clear ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979129)
In your case lets just say it's a shot and move on.
If it's a shot, yes, he can dribble. Fine. Move on from there.

But what if it's not a shot?

What if any ball thrown by a player at his own basket is not always considered a shot?

In any case, the casebook play is not clear that the player can legally dribble the ball a second time. Maybe he can, but it certainly isn't clear.

If the caseplay is so clear, please explain to me how the player can legally dribble a second time if the throw is not a shot. If it's clear, it should be quite easy to explain. Right?

BillyMac Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:54pm
What To Do Next ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979129)
If the player can legally catch the ball then what the heck do you think he/she can do afterwards with the ball?
Pass. Shoot. Request a timeout. All legal. But until I'm convinced otherwise, he can't dribble.

deecee Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 979131)
If it's a shot, yes, he can dribble. Fine. Move on from there.

But what if it's not a shot?

What if any ball thrown by a player at his own basket is not always considered a shot?

In any case, the casebook play is not clear that the player can legally dribble the ball a second time. Maybe he can, but it certainly isn't clear.

If the caseplay is so clear, please explain to me how the player can legally dribble a second time if the throw is not a shot. If it's clear, it should be quite easy to explain. Right?
If he couldn't legally catch it then it would be an illegal dribble. So since he can legally catch it he can do with the ball what any player can that has just gained initial possession.

BillyMac Tue Feb 02, 2016 03:59pm
Where It Lands, I Know Not Where ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979136)
If he couldn't legally catch it then it would be an illegal dribble. So since he can legally catch it he can do with the ball what any player can that has just gained initial possession.
A stationary player holding the ball can always toss the ball up into the air and catch it several times without violating any rule. This caseplay simply adds that he can toss the ball off his own basket in the same manner without violating. It doesn't imply anything else.

Can a stationary player, after ending his dribble, holding the ball, toss the ball up into the air and catch it several times, and then legally start a new dribble? If not, then how do we allow a second dribble in the caseplay (assuming that the throw is not a shot)?

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

BillyMac Tue Feb 02, 2016 04:35pm
This Is Not The Iowa Caucuses ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979129)
Billy how many other officials do you need to disagree with you before you accept an answer?
We're not conducting a poll, we're using the rules, and casebook plays, and maybe annual interpretations, to correctly interpret a situation.

All it takes is one good citation to change my mind. That's all, one good citation.

Dad Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 979124)
Travel? How about an illegal dribble? No. the case book says this is legal. No travel. No illegal dribble. We're legal here and have no whistle.

Clear? The caseplay doesn't even state if the player moves his feet between the throw and the catch.Because it doesn't need to. If the same act the player did was against the floor then it would be a violation by rule. Since you can pick up your dribble, throw the ball of the backboard, and then catch it without there being a violation... there's no reason to go into what isn't or is legal -- it just told you. Throwing the ball off the backboard is like throwing it off one of your own players. How can that be clear? He can't travel if he doesn't move his feet.Sure, but he can double dribble if he throws it at the floor and catches it. Backboard isn't there floor. It's like another player and the case book shows that with NOT calling something that would be a violation if it was off the floor. It's the same as a player standing, not moving his pivot foot, or either foot, and tossing the ball up in the air a couple of times, which has already been interpreted as a non-call.No it's not. The air we are breathing is not considered part of a players 'equipment' The catch was never a travel because he never moved his feet. Since this caseplay does not identify the throw as a shot, then the player can only legally begin a new dribble under a few circumstances:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Again, assuming it's not a shot (the caseplay doesn't call it a shot), has the ball touched an opponent; or was it a pass, or fumble, that was then touched by another player? We already know that you can't pass the ball to yourself (or your backboard, you can only pass to another player), so it wasn't a pass, plus it was never touched by another player. It was intentional so it wasn't a fumble, plus, again, it was never touched by another player. Did the ball ever touch an opponent? The case play says it hit the backboard and that's it. Then catching the ball is legal: not a double dribble. You're trying to add in irrelevant information that isn't in the play. It said exactly what happened. We don't need to figure out if someone touched the ball or not. Picks up dribble. Throws it off backboard. Catches ball. Legal. You're worrying about so much stuff that doesn't mean anything. If there's one, and only one, thing you should be worried about it's what is 'equipment'.

Why wouldn't this be an illegal dribble?Cause case play?

Could it be that some interpret a ball thrown at the player's own backboard as always, automatically, being a shot? Where's the rule interpretation for that (NFHS)?It doesn't say this anywhere. It does, however, a team's own backboard is their equipment.
The case says why. Your own backboard is a part of your equipment. As I said before, treat it like a 6th man and it'll all make perfect sense -- at least to me it does.

My replies are in bold.

Adam Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by griblets (Post 978798)
The instant he started a dribble after lifting his pivot foot is when the travel occurs. It has nothing to do with him being first to touch it.
There's an ongoing discussion/argument on this. If he touches it first, it's a dribble. If someone else touches it first, it's a pass.

Some advocate waiting to make the call until he touches it based on that.

Dad Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 979146)
All it takes is one good citation to change my mind. That's all, one good citation.
Maybe my post was a bit confusing.

1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No? Why? Oh, why you ask. I got this.

Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard.

So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard. Well, what does a teams equipment mean? Find that out and you probably have all your answers.

BillyMac Wed Feb 03, 2016 04:31pm
Illegal Dribble ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 979277)
1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No?
Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard..
Agree 100% with #2 above. Always have (by rule and caseplay).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 979277)
So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard.
Absolutely not:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

deecee Wed Feb 03, 2016 04:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad (Post 979277)
Maybe my post was a bit confusing.

1) Player picks up dribble.

2) Players throws ball off backboard. Is this considered a dribble? No? Why? Oh, why you ask. I got this.

Dribble: 4-15-1: It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard.

So the only question you can really ask here is can they dribble again after throwing it off the backboard. Well, what does a teams equipment mean? Find that out and you probably have all your answers.

He's not going to get it not matter how hard you try. Unless the exact thing he is looking for is spelled out in the rule/case book you will only go in circles. It's best to let this go.

BillyMac Wed Feb 03, 2016 04:52pm
How Do You Spell Relief ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 979345)
Unless the exact thing he is looking for is spelled out in the rule/case book you will only go in circles. It's best to let this go.
The exact thing is spelled out in the rulebook:

9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Maybe a page was accidentally ripped from my rulebook? Is there a fourth article to this rule that I don't know about? An exception? A note?


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