Time for a Rule Review?
 

OK...need some help from the HS stripes on this one. Recruiting for a team last week and saw this unusual play. Team A had possession of the ball at half court when player on Team B was called for a non shooting personal foul, a second later the fouled player on Team A was called for a technical foul. Two technical foul shots were taken by Team B and then they were given the ball opposite the table. I would have assumed that since the personal foul was prior to the tech that team A would have maintained the possession after the foul shots. To me this seems to be a questionable rule whereas team B received no negative effect of play as a result of the PF.

Not in High School. This was handled correctly. Had team A been in the bonus they would have shot the 1-1 with the lane cleared, then shot the technical, and team B would have received the ball at the half line for a throw in.

Fouls are handled in the order they occur, so this was the correct procedure (unless Team A was in the bonus - then they would have shot 1 and 1 with lane cleared before B shot their free throws for the T). Team B had their team foul count increase and the player had his/her foul count increase, so there was an effect.

High school Technical fouls are different than college. The penalty is 2 shots with the ball at the division line. Since the penalty for the personal foul was possession, team A lost that possession do to the T. If it was a 1&1 or 2 shot foul, they would have shot with the lane cleared. Fouls are enforced in the order they happen.

So Team A should not lose possession of the ball after they are charged for a technical foul?

Perhaps the player on Team A should not have been an idiot and got a tech in the first place.

And chances are that technical foul was a "bigger deal" than the personal foul.

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None of this really matters - the rules give us the sequence of handling the situation. He was just asking a question not knowing how we handle the situation in HS. No need to treat him like he's a moron.

Maybe...but that's no basis for a rule application. I don't think there are degrees of "deals" in high school basketball. Just violations, fouls, and specific penalties for each. Don't confuse the original poster with non-relevant opinion.

I'm sorry, it sounded like he understood how it was carried out, he just disagreed and was looking for a change to the rule.

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He's a college coach. College T's are POI except for dead ball contact and flagrant 2 T's which are midcourt opposite the table to the offended team.

not looking for a rule review was just confirming the rule to begin with. Just seems odd that their is no effect to the course of play on the court when a personal foul is committed. I get it that there is a player/team foul but that does not address course of play. I assume this is a good rule to discourage the player from the tech in the first place. Thanks for the responses.

The difference between HS rules and college rules.

Team B did receive a team foul and B1 received a personal foul, that's their penalty. If Team A would have been in the bonus, they would have shot free throws, that would have been an additional penalty.

A1 needs to keep his mouth shut, especially when his opponent just got called for a foul.

He understands. He is an assistant coach from a college team based on what I can surmise from his 3 posts so far. He just needs to accept that the HS rule is different than the college rule.

IIRC, the college rule used to be the same as the current HS rule. In essence, college softened the consequences of certain Ts. And IIRC, it was some years after they had increased the consequences of a T by going from 1 FT to 2.

I work both. All that history stuff is irrelevant to me (as you can tell in my convos with BillyMac). The college rule has been the way it now for a while now. Every time I work I make sure I'm prepared to properly adjudicate technical fouls based on that game's rule set.

Sorry for the confusion

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History can be dangerous if overthought but can be useful sometimes in understanding where coaches (and, regrettably, sometimes partners) are coming from. In my mind, it is helpful to know that something used to be a rule because there can be a difference between a coach who is just clueless and a coach remembering an old rule. (As I've said on here before, I ref soccer not basketball. I have on numerous occasions told a coach "That was a rule, but it changed several years ago." In my experience it enhances credibility: on one hand it shows I listened to him and understood what he said, and at the same time establishes detailed rule knowledge. YMMV.

(And yes, I'll confess that I also (more so than many) find the evolution of the rules and he changes that get made over time fascinating. And while the reasons for those changes often aren't relevant to enforcement and application, I find that understanding the thought process behind them, even when I disagree with the rationale, makes it easier to remember what they are. Again, YMMV)

In high school, they have essentially determined that all technical fouls carry the penalty of two shots and the ball. It's intentionally a more severe penalty.

My question for you is this. In the other post, you noted that you are a "Terps fan who is also a ref" or something like that. What level do you officiate?

Not sure why it is different but in NCAAM, at least, you can put the ball back in play on either side of court.

BNR won't care;), but going back to the history comments, it is more precise to say that HS did not follow NCAA in lessening the punishment for certain Ts. Ts in both HS and NCAA used to be 1 FT and the ball. Around the same time (earlyish 80s?) they each went to 2 FTs. Some time later NCAA introduced POI for some Ts.

(Many may recall the infamous Fab Five excessive time out call by Chris Weber, which turned over the ball in addition to the FTs.)

We're back to 1 FT for all Class B and Administrative T's on the men's side.

NCAA-W lose possession for an excessive time-out.

I'm a college official who is the father of a Terps fan, does that count?

And I know Randy Edsall's brother.

Thanks, I had forgotten that -- I'm obviously not watching enough hoops on TV! And it's a distinction I like -- 1 FT for the "technical" technical fouls makes a lot of sense to me. (Not that anyone cares what I think makes sense . . .)

I would like for NFHS to at least go to POI for those types of infractions.

They get stupid enough at this level. I'm fine with the "extra" penalty.

I have the opposite opinion... I'd prefer the NFHS stay as it is, for two reasons:
1) it's simpler to remember: Enforce in order of occurrence.
2) It makes technical fouls more costly in situations exactly like is described in the OP. If you ("you" meaning: a team/player) don't like it, don't get a T... simple as that.

I know of a college basketball official named Duke Edsall.

Who is this Randy Edsall that you speak of?

Took the words out of my mouth. In fact the "softening" of technical foul penalty weight in college is an ongoing trend. For example, in NCAAM, the rule was changed this year where Class B techs have decreased from 2 FTs to 1.

There's less tolerance for technical fouls, at least from a rules committee philosophical standpoint, in high school. Hence the penalties are more severe. In addition, I think there's a NFHS rules committee desire to keep technical foul administration very simple and consistent for HS officials. So while I personally would prefer to use the POI in NFHS games like NCAA does, I don't see it ever happening at the HS level.

Also, no disrespect to BNR, but I respectfully disagree about his indifference to rules history. It matters. Helps avoid past mistakes, and helps keep rules changes in context, especially if you have to explain them to a partner who's having a brain fart (like I did yesterday when my partner almost gave bonus free throws for an illegal screen :eek:).

I don't need historical context to get the rules right today. Every week I have to jump back and forth from high school to college rules, that's enough to keep in my head without worrying about what somebody thought a rule was 5 years ago.

Officials who always bring up old rules are the ones I always find interpreting today's rules wrong

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I think for some it can be helpful, but it depends on personality and how you learn. For me, it helps put things in context and remember the rules. For others, it clutters things up.

Two Sides Of A Coin ...
 

It's a double edged sword. Knowing the history of a rule can help some understand the context of a rule but it can also cause confusion if some have trouble separating the past from the present.

Especially in a pre game or when you're in camp.

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