Act of Shooting...Foul...Horn...Release -- Score It?
 

End of Quarter Shot/Foul/Horn/Release Situation

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The order of things in this clip seemed to have been this:
Act of Shooting begun...Foul on Shooter...Horn...Ball Released in Flight...Shot Successful.
Do we score that shot?

According to the first part of 5.6.2D ("...A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws...") it appears that this slight variation of that casebook situation would deem the shot in the video good even though the horn sounded before the ball was in flight.

But from what I'm seeing in 6-7-1 and EXCEPTION: "The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: c. Article 7 [a foul other than PC or TC] occurs by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight." That underlined part prompts me to call it dead on the horn and not count the basket.

Help me here. My sense tells me to count it in the video, and that somewhat similar casebook reference seems to confirm that. However, that 6-7-1 section seems to say the ball is dead since the horn sounded prior to release of the shot.

Can you help me understand this and solve the conundrum I'm in?

If you believe the foul was before the expiration of time, but the shot was not released until after the horn sounded, you have two possible outcomes.

If you have definitive knowledge of how much time was on the clock when the foul occurred, count the basket, put the exact time back on the clock, and shoot 1 free throw.

If you do not have definitive knowledge of the time, the basket does not count, and shoot two free throws.

In the video, I do not hear the horn sound. IMO, the foul occurs after zeros on the game clock. Using the available evidence and without hearing the horn, I am waving off the shot and not counting the foul as it occurred when the ball was dead and wasn't intentional or flagrant.

I'm Getting There
 

I now see how 5.6.2D is not in conflict with disregarding the basket and awarding two shots because the period ended before the ball was in flight on the shot.

In this play the foul may have occurred at the .1 second mark. Defenders hand may have been on offense. Hard to tell. I didn't hear a horn either. (I didn't even hear the official's whistle at time of foul.). There is a case play which says all zeroes on clock does not mean time expired. Horn or light, the "period ending signal," determines it. That play says line the players up and shoot the free throw.

Having said that, I have seen clocks stopped at all zeroes without a horn sounding. We then think it will sound when clock started again. Clock started, no horn then either.

Freddy, if you were there I'm assuming you did hear a horn? If it did go off after the foul and before the ball was released then, as Johhny said originally , basket does not count and shoot 2 FTs with no one on lane. Player is in act of shooting but is not an airborne shooter. Ball is dead when horn sounds and ball is still in his hands.

A minor point Freddy, you know this....The "time expired" when the horn sounded. The quarter or period does not end until the FTs are completed. It matters because if someone gets a T after the horn but before the FTS are shot it is penalized in that quarter. Thx

The Syncopated Clock ...
 

Back in the olden days, mechanical clocks, even if everything was working correctly, could be stopped with 0:00 on the scoreboard with no horn for a split second. In addition, occasionally the timekeeper would accidentally turn off a switch for an automatic horn, and the horn would never sound at the end of the period.

Do these problems still exist with modern digital clocks?

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M2d...=0&w=300&h=300

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If you get to all zeros with no horn, the first thing to do is to check to see if the "auto horn" is turned on.

If the clock does not show tenths, sure.

If it shows tenths it's possible but unlikely.

Foul happened before there was zero on the clock. Also, zero doesn't even matter.

Yup. The refresher exam this year had this exact scenario. Two FTs and no shot.

The foul was in the act of shooting so we are shooting FTs no matter what.

However, for the actual shot to count it has to be out of the players' hands before the buzzer.

In this scenario you're shooting the two FTs, but not counting the basket if it goes in.

I was in Denver on business when they had the big IAABO meeting. I went and argued this question and never got a good answer. "Blah blah blah, but you'll never see it in a game."

It sounds as though the video and the audio are out of sync on the clip.

Since I can't hear the horn I'm going by the clock, and the release and foul occur after clock is at 0:00.

No, I wasn't there . . . just crunching video for other association members.
I concur with your findings and observations.
The original video has the horn simultaneous with the clock at 0.0.

The release of the ball and the time on the clock has nothing to do with being in the act of shooting. You can be fouled in the act of shooting and release the ball after the horn. In that case you get 2 or 3 shots but because the ball was not released before the horn the basket cannot count if it goes in. Remember to shoot the foul shots prior to ending the period.

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Sometimes it does (depending on the level and the replay capabilities)

But it can happen. I had 0.0 with no horn once, and checked with the timer, and sure enough the console readout said 0.07. So the moral of the story is, before you make a decision, go to the timer and ask if he/she has a more precise readout, as well as to confirm whether the "auto horn" is turned on.

In NFHS, unless you have some kind of very accurate definite knowledge, you have to account for the reaction time of the timer (speed of sound, reaction time, etc.). That's usually about a quarter second or so. Some guys say, "put 0.3 back on." I hate that; it is supported by neither rule nor case play in NFHS.

NCAA with replay = different story. In that scenario, the only time you'd be shooting FTs with no time on the clock on this case would be if the foul occurred on an airborne shooter after the expiration of time (assuming the shooter released the try in time).

If an official sees a time on the clock, that time can be put back....even if it is just 0.3....and even if it is reaction time. The time it takes for the official to see the clock is the reaction time the timer is allowed.

In this case, the official should have looked at the clock to have something to put back. If the foul & whistle happened before the horn, the clock should have stopped. The shot "should" count and time "should" be put back...but the only way to do within the rules that is to look at the clock and see it before it gets to 0 or to have some mental count of the time.

And unless you're standing at the opposite side of the parking lot, the speed of sound isn't going to matter.

Also, nothing in the rules says the definite knowledge has to have any sort of accuracy.

I agree with all of this in general. In fact I've applied it before. If you see it on the clock, you can put it back on. I'm not sure I would use a mental count when tenths of a second are involved. It's one thing when you have a backcourt count going and you notice the clock didn't start after a throw-in. This is a situation that requires much more precision....the kind that only visual observation of the clock can provide.

It's when I don't observe a time on the clock (in a situation where the foul is pretty much bang-bang with the horn) that I have a problem with just arbitrarily putting a set amount of time back on the clock. No rules support for that, though I know there are nonetheless some supervisors out there that direct it.

How can you say that time should be put back on the clock and that the basket should count. The ball was not released until after time expired. The player was in the act of shooting before time expired. So now we should not care the location and status of the ball when the time expires. Lets just shoot the ball (which is still in contact with the shooter) when time expires, heck, whey don't we shoot minutes after the time has expired?

In all seriousness, I know that this is a case book play but I just cannot seem to find it right now. I will continue looking.

NCAA restores the time on the clock at the moment of the contact for the foul. That can be done with a courtside monitor.
For NFHS, if the whistle comes before the horn and an official sees time remaining on the clock, that time can be restored and the try counts.
The last part is what Camron is advocating.

I 100% agree with the putting the time that should be on the clock back on the clock but we can only do that if there is definite knowledge of the time. If we don't have definite knowledge we cannot do anything but shoot the free throws.

That is exactly what Camron would do. Afterall, he is an excellent official who has worked a State Championship game. He is simply saying that on this play someone should have definite knowledge and the try should count. Don't confuse that with what he would do in the absence of that.

@Nevada

In that case I agree with you and Cameron. Someone should know the time but it is not always the case.

If someone could help me as I am sure that there is a case book play that is just like this one, I cannot find it presently.

Ahhh. Found it
 

5.6.2 SITUATION D:
Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1’s attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul?
RULING:
In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7

Read the first part of the thread. It does not say anything about adding time back to the clock.

There's another one in there somewhere, too, with words that say, "however, the timer cannot get the clock stopped in time and time for the fourth quarter expires" or something like that.

It also says nothing about adding time back on.


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Lost me here, example? Seems with zero accuracy there's no definite knowledge.

Lah, me. I'll explain it to you.

If the foul happens with 0.7 on the clock and the whistle blows with 0.5, but the official doesn't look until 0.2, then 0.2 is what gets restored by rule. In this case the official is not accurate as he was slow to look either when blowing the whistle or hearing his partner's. However, he does have definite knowledge.

Please note that both of these case plays predate the current NFHS rules which have eliminated lag time for the timer. We have to interpret them in the context of the current rules, not under those during which they were authored.

What kind of atomic basketball clock is this??

This isn't zero accuracy. You knew some time was left on the clock. I was just curious how far Camron would take definite knowledge.

Timing An Olympic 100 Meter Run ???
 

Last week, I had a scoreboard that had a spot for hundredths of a second. That spot always showed a zero, but it caught my attention..

Oddity three years ago . . . according to my rusty memory:
Scoreboard minutes and seconds worked great but the tenths of seconds, we were told by the AD prior to the game, didn't work. Wouldn't you know it. Whistle near end of a period stopped the clock at 0:0 but the horn didn't go off. Home coach, desiring to set up a play during a timeout, asked if we could go to the scoreboard operator's console at the table to identify if there was .3 seconds or fewer left on the clock. (At least he knew the rule!) As I recall the console display showed .2, so we knew the next play had to be a tip.
Looked it up later where 5-2-5 says "...three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock...". Doesn't say which display, so as long as both coaches and all the officials knew the situation, we justified our actions in that case.
One in a million circumstance, I guess.

Which Display ???
 

Maybe more likely than one in a million. This scenario had been discussed on the Forum two, or three, times over the past several years.

I keep forgetting: Has we ever reached out to an interpreter - or Peter Webb - to get an answer as to whether the 0:00.3 or less has to be on a clock everyone can see, as opposed to just the official timer?

You have my attention. Request you go into more detail about the old rule language, what has changed, and what the applicable rule-article-section is.

I'm dubious because:

A) language about definite knowledge has always been in place (at least as long as I can remember).

B) the case plays are still in the book, and with the NFHS's propensity to quietly remove old case plays, one has to wonder why they haven't removed or edited these two.

C) it's not like we have precision timing packs and monitors in HS, so why would the NFHS deliberately remove timer lag time allowance when the definite knowledge clause has always been a backstop for officials?


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I don't agree. The operating console is not the game clock. The visible one required by Rule 1 is what you need.

Additionally, don't ignore the note after 5-2-5.

When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, a player may not gain control of the ball and try for a field goal. In this situation only a tap could score.

NOTE: This rule does not apply if the clock does not display tenths of a second.

I've seen it more than once on the console itself (never the board, though). Not often, but it seems there are one or two scoreboard companies who have this console feature. Just worth being aware of if you ever experience 0.0 with no horn.


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I think this scenario would be a great time to NOT have that patient whistle we all strive for. That said, say an official for whatever reason is less aware of the clock than usual, and sees contact (let's say with 0.5 on the clock), is patient to try to determine the effect of that contact, and the horn goes off. The contact clearly affects the shot attempt, and needs to be called. In this situation I don't believe it would be possible to put time back on the clock, nor could you count the bucket if release was after the buzzer.

Not according to the NFHS rules as written, but there are going to be several posters on here who would restore time and count the goal.

The rule said something to the effect that "if the timer stops the clock within 1 second of the whistle, that's good enough."

So, if you blew the whistle at 0:05.0 (and were looking at the clock at the time), and the timer stopped the clock at 0:04.0, you'd leave that on the clock.

And, to someone else's question about hundredths of seconds, there's a school here where the clocks above the backboards show tenths when the clock is running (under a minute), but hundredths when the clock is stopped (also under a minute).

Another example....the clock is at 7.5 at the time of a throwin that is immediately caught inbounds while closely guarded. The clock doesn't start. The official's 5-count is in progress and gets to 5 without the clock starting. Like many official's counts, the count is slow and it was really 8 seconds. You still take 5 off the clock regardless of how accurate the official's count is.

I have a mental count at any time when the situation matters. I look at the clock on any whistle when the situation matters (and the play allows). Between the two, I'm going to definitely have knowledge of how much time was left, even in fractions of a second, if the horn sounds after my whistle.

In my count, I might be off a couple of tenths at most but that is allowed by rule.

I KNOW that the clock ran after the whistle, I KNOW I had a count in my head. I can, by rule, use that count to restore time regardless of how accurate it is.

Anyone that has ever had much musical training (and I have) is going to have a good sense of time and reasonably accurate timing, even to subparts of a second. No reason not to use all the skills and training one has in order to do a better job.

Thank you for the response!

I agree, musical training helps a lot with having a feel for timing.