Bonus not double bonus
 

Didn't matter as it was a four point game, but I'm thinking the officials kicked this in an NFHS game.

With 2.9 seconds left, regular bonus for home. Official under the basket tells the players there are two shots. Visitors catch ball, not in real rebounding action, clock starts, and official whistles. 1.4 seconds on the clock.

Officials say going to the arrow (which happens to be for the visitors) and then huddle, apparently deciding not to put time on the clock.

It seemed to me (and I'm curious) that the two options were:

No time off the clock since play was not starting, and go to the arrow; or
Time off the clock, inadvertent whistle, and visitors have the ball because they were holding it when the whistle blew.

As I said at the top, didn't matter as there was no way they could score twice even with the 2.9, but curious what the right ruling should have been.

The officials fixed this on the court in the proper manner.
The erroneous info prevented one team from attempting to rebound.
Therefore, play must be stopped and the AP arrow used.
There is no rule permitting the officials to restore time to the clock.

Clock should never been chopped in so I would put time back.

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Not true.

If the non-administering official was not aware that the partner provided incorrect information to the players and knew that it was a 1&1 situation, this official would have correctly chopped in time.

Also, if the official fails to properly chop for the clock to start the timer is authorized BY RULE to start the clock.

Either way the NFHS rules do not allow you to restore any time here as there was no timing error. There was an information error.

If it was my whistle, it would be immediate. I would see the time on the clock when my whistle blew.

Could you please point me to the rule/case citation for this? Thanks in advance.

Case Book play 8.6.1

Thanks. Was talking about this exact situation with some other officials and we couldn't come to a consensus.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

8.6.1 SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw
situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that
two shots will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed shot is
rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw;
or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound.
The officials recognize their error at this point. RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's
error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and
didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be whistled dead immediately and
resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an
attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to
gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue. (2-3)

That's very different than saying that you would restore time in the situation presented by the OP. The OP clearly wrote that there was 1.4 seconds left after the whistle blew.

Nevada:

I agree with you up to the point about the time that should be on the clock when the AP Throw-in is taken. It is my opinion that 2.9 seconds should be on the clock.

That said, it is after 02:15amEST and is way past my bedtime. I stayed up with my "better half" to watch a movie that started at 11:00pm and ended at 02:00am. I did not want to stay up late and watch the movie but I did watched the movie with her because I did not want to her stay up alone. Instead she fell asleep 20 minutes into the movie and I stayed up to the bitter end, :p.

Junior and I have a game at 05:00pmEST and I need my beauty sleep. So good night all.

MTD, Sr.

The play says nothing about the clock. I would also be inclined to put the clock at 2.9 as well.

Then again this should never happen as the crew should be paying attention to each other or asking questions if the FT attempt are incorrectly stated to the teams. Prevent it from happening an you do not have to worry about the clock or when to stop the game.

Peace

Game action occurred. It was timed. What rule allows the restoration of time consumed before the officials stopped play with a whistle?

Don't compound one mistake with another.

Why not put 2.5 back on the clock? The ball became dead when the player from the visiting team "caught" the ball. We have knowledge that by rule a player can only tap the ball on a try for goal with .3 on the clock. If there were .4 left he could potentially catch and shoot. With the inadvertent whistle the POI is the player catching the rebound, ball now dead, AP throw in, clock adjusted by .4 for the time consumed in catching the rebound. Just an early morning pre-coffee analysis.

That makes some sense, and some rules codes (I think) have such a provision (also perhaps used when an inbounds pass is tipped immediately out of bounds, or a TO is requested immediately upon a rebound, etc.)

But, it has no basis in NFHS or NCAA rules..

im putting the time back on the clock.

Of course you would, junior. :(
Now please cite an NFHS rule permitting you to do so.

The officials erroneously announced a 1-1 bonus, therefore the clock should not have started and the officials screwed up. In this case I'm not going to penalize the teams for our mess up and there is no rule or case play that says we cannot put the time back on in this case. I'll go with the common sense approach here.

You can play the semantics game all you like but the officials messed up and there is no way I'm not adding time back on in this case.

Actually, the officials erroneously announced two FTs instead of the 1&1.
However, the announcing of erroneous information does not automatically make the ball dead if the first FT attempt is unsuccessful. The proof--Look at the Case Book ruling. If you were correct, how could the ball remain live and play continue when both teams go after it? By your analysis the ball has to be dead and the clock shouldn't start. Sorry, but you are incorrect and the ball isn't dead until whistled so by an official and the clock runs until that point too.

A case which we have discussed on here several times is what to do if A3 rebounds the miss unchallenged by any player of Team B and quickly scores a basket before any of the officials can react. There was no whistle until after the ball passed through the basket. The NFHS ruling is that this basket must count. It's not a correctable error. It's a screw up by the officials and they have to live with it.

You really should learn to officiate by the rules and not by what is palatable to you. Going by the what the rules say is common sense.

BTW still waiting for you (or anyone else) to cite an NFHS rule allowing you to restore time in the presented situation.

If the officials give the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in and notice it after the ball has been inbounded and 3 seconds have elapsed are you going to nix that action and put the time back on the clock too? Would following the rule here be just semantics to you too?

I read the OP wrong. In this case I wouldn't put 2.9 seconds back on but I would probably put 2.5 as stated earlier since the ball would be dead on the rebound due to inactivity by one team.

As for this scenario once the throw in is complete its to late.

Got a rule to support that claim?

Again the Case Book clearly says that the officials need to whistle the play dead. I think that I'll go with what's written in the NFHS book. That seems like common sense.

PS What about the play in which A3 rebounds and scores prior to any whistle? Are you claiming that was a dead ball on the rebound too?

There is a case study on officials screwing up 1&1 vs 2 and how the players react on the rebound.

It's 8.6.1 But it doesn't say anything about putting time back on the clock.

SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one and one free throw situation. The administrating official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebound by; (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2 with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the officials error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the AP procedure. In (c), both teams made and attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue.

However rule

5.10.2 art 1...The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the time to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
5.10.2 art 2...If the referee determines that the clock malfunctioned or was not started/stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an officials count or other official information may be used to make correction.

I don't think its a reach to say we could stop the play if only one team plays the ball and put the time back on the clock, if the officials knew what was on the clock when the free throw took place.

The only way I can figure that you could POSSIBLY put time back on the clock is if you claim that the whistle was blown when the ball was first touched on the rebound. But not only is this not true in the OP, but it would almost never be true, as the recognition that not both teams reacted takes at least some amount of process time. I don't see how you could justify putting time back on the clock other than, "It just seems like the right thing to do." Unfortunately, sometimes when officials screw up it costs teams. That's why we work so hard at not doing that.

Thanks for posting the case.

Bold text: Ideally the officials rule it dead immediately. If that doesn't happen and seconds run off the clock I agree with you it's not a reach.

Your reference to 5.9.2 art 1, is actually Rule Book 5-10-1, and refers only to ". . . a mistake made by the timer . . ." In the situation being discussed, the mistake is by the officials, and not by the timer.
5-9-1 allows the timer to start the clock, ". . . if the official neglects to signal . . ."

Three seconds left in the game and you, in error, call 2 shots instead of a 1&1. Home is up by one point and is on the line. H1 misses shot and H2 is the only player who runs in for the rebound and gets the ball. Official brain farts, chops the clock, then blows his whistle after three seconds to correct the situation.

When my assigner calls me to chew me out on how I let my crew do this I'd rather have been the crew that put time on the clock. I'm sure it's different for other assigners, but I could see losing my varsity schedule for being the one to brain fart and then not putting time on the clock. I'm in trouble either way, but I'd pick put time on the clock.

I think it is pretty clear, using article 5, that time should not be put back on the clock. And I quote, "Points scored, consumed time, and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified."

johnny d just quoted the rule reference that I'd use. Seems to me it was done correctly on the court.

So your assignor would rather have you screw up twice (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1, and putting time back on the clock) rather than once (awarding 2 shots instead of 1 and 1) and then handling the situation by the rules because it seems more fair? He wont be the assignor long, since he, like the officials that handle the situation by putting time back on the clock, have absolutely no rules backing to do so.

Why aren't officials errors allowed as a CE? Seems to me this sitch, putting ball in play to wrong team, and I'm sure some other things I'm not recalling, could be added to CE procedure to help the thought to "let the players decide the outcome". I don't want to confuse rules anymore than necessary but for those of you who have been around a while, have those ever been a CE or has it been discussed to add things to CE allowables?


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But we aren't discussing a correctable error here as defined in the rules to which that provision applies.

Interesting discussion - thanks all. And I guess this is another example of how there isn't necessarily a satisfactory answer when there is an officiating error. (Fortunately in my son's game it just didn't matter as only divine intervention or a bizarre technical foul could have given them a chance to win at that point.)

It's not that simple, imo.

He's the top assigner in the state and is a big timer with NFHS. I said what I would do in the situation I gave to attempt to fix screwing up the entire game. Is it a good choice? Ehh, idk, but I'm screwed anyway.

If I muck up a call this bad and it's a deciding factor in who wins the game -- goodbye schedule. We don't get to royally screw up a game around here and continue to officiate at a high level. At least for any given year, and yes some good collegiate officials have lost their HS schedules mucking up a game.

I royally mucked up a HS game once so far. I fixed it not following the rules so I wouldn't decide the game. I was fine with my decision and understood I'd be getting freshman games the rest of the year. Personally, I'd rather be punished for fixing my oops with missing two rules than I would being punished for one and deciding the game.

I agree with the sentiment, and I certainly wouldn't want to mess something up that badly at such a crucial time that it appears to be a deciding factor in who wins the game (I say appears, because I do not believe any one play can or should be considered the deciding factor for a game), and I realize that as an official, you are going to be screwed either way. However, I cannot see myself compounding one mistake, no matter how egregious, with another. I would rather bite the bullet and at least have the rules on my side as to what was done after the first mistake occurred.

We are absolutely discussing a CE here.

I realize that you were not the one who made the mistake in the OP, and nor was I. All that said, you're asking me a hypothetical of what would I do based on a scenario I'm certain I would not be in. The reason is because, especially at the end of a game, I am very clear about not only my communication with the crew, but also theirs with me. Nonetheless, if I found myself in this position, I would still follow the rules, and take the heat from coaches.

As for losing your varsity schedule, Well you should lose some games if you make this mistake at this point in a game. My concern would be not compounding one major error with a blatant disregard of the rules.

5.10.2. says....or was not started/stopped properly. The clock wasn't started properly. I'm not married to the idea of putting time back on. I could see putting time back on, but not 100% sure.

Was an unmerited free throw awarded? I don't think so, the second unmerited free throw never happened. The officials provided the wrong information. I don't believe this is a CE situation.

yes it is. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be. It's the awarding of an unmerited free throw.

It has to be egregious for me to fix it. 99% of the time I agree with you, but here's where I don't(opinion):

H is up by one. V hits the ball out of bounds with two seconds to go. I call H ball, but V runs out of bounds and I give it to them. V1 passes to V2 and V2 scores a basket - buzzer. Even if the rules don't allow me to fix this, I'm doing it anyway.

If the 2nd free throw would have been shot, I would agree with you, however that never happened. How can you have an unmerited free throw when it was never taken?

It was never taken, but by virtue of the incorrect announcement it was awarded.

This would be my interpretation as well.

It was awarded when the administering official stated "two shots." It was not corrected until after the clock started. Otherwise, what's the basis for stopping play at all?

Especially since the case play says play should be stopped immediately.

I recognize it immediately upon the release of the free throw. During that time frame the clock is not running. So, yes, it is possible to kill the play without any time coming off the clock.

Well if you recognized it before the release, why in the world would you let it get this far? If you heard your partner say 2 when it was really a 1-1, stop the action then, correct the issue, then re-administer properly.

The OP said or implied that the error was not recognized until the teams failed to go for the rebound.

And when do players start going for the rebound?

Ok, fair enough, but can you confirm with certainty that they are not going for a rebound in this time? It might be possible, don't get me wrong, but I think I'd have to see how they are reacting and have some process time to realize what the error is.

Let me put it this way, if your partner correctly said 1-1, you are the C and the shot goes up and no one seems to move much, are you going to immediately kill it? Unless I'm sure that there was a miscommunication, I'm probably going to be sure there is an issue before blowing it dead. Granted in this situation, time is critical, but I'm also not going to blow a live ball dead until I know something is up.

OMG!!! :eek:

You are going to blatantly cheat the visiting team and go directly against a very clearly written ruling. You shouldn't be officiating. :(

The NFHS has stated in previous rulings included in the past interpretations archive that a situation such as this is not a CE. Announcing the wrong info is not the same as actually administering an unmerited FT. This is simply an officials' mistake.

And again, I ask....why aren't these type of mistakes errr, ERRORS, correctable? Have they ever been or has it been discussed to add them as such?


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Because it's not one of the 5 correctable errors. Simple enough.

I disagree. It isn't awarded until is taken. The basis for stopping play is basically fairness by way of interpretation, not by any specific rule. The only way to stop the clock otherwise would be to declare the ball to have been dead on the miss and then we'd be putting time back.

Not in my 17 years of officiating. The NFHS and NCAA have stuck with the five CE situations. That's it. Everything else is a mistake by the officials. Some of those can be fixed, others can't and you are stuck with them.

Sports isn't perfect. It is a human activity that is going to be flawed. Mistakes are part of the game.

So Lead erroneously tells players 2 FTs. 1st shot is missed, players don't pursue the ball. Ball is caught by opponent, clock starts, opponent immediately tosses ball to the Lead for the second free throw, whistle sounds to stop the clock just as horn goes off, ball game. Correct?

Yes, that is how the rules are.

Cheat the cheating team out of cheating.

The day my competence is low enough for this to happen I'm retiring anyway. May as well retire giving you an ulcer.

What was the correctable error? What would be your remedy for this new correctable error?

Bonus not double bonus
 

I'm not saying it is a CE, I know it's not. I'm playing devils advocate here of why it is not listed as one. And was really more asking some of the long timers if it had ever been discussed as being added to the CE list. Seems like if all the others are, it would make sense to at least consider these as such. Providing wrong info on # of shots? Seems easy to fix. And giving ball to wrong team on throw in? Unless I'm missing something, put it as a CE that could be remedied only if nothing else happened before whistle blows (points scored, turnover, etc)

Self reflection here: I'd be very embarrassed to ever make a mistake like these and it would be nice to have a way to fix them. I know I'm rambling now but was really just interested to get some input on why the CE's we have are the only ones listed and are that specific. Bc to me, the five listed seem like officials errors to me as well.

Sorry for the long post.


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But what would be your remedy for such an error? What would you write in the rule book to "rectify" the situation?

I have no idea! That's why I'm asking you!!!!! [emoji3][emoji3]

Ahh, just seems odd why some mistakes are CE and some aren't


I wish I had a cool signature

In that case, we'd have to put time back in order to justify stopping play. Am I missing an interp on this?

If I were to add something (not sure of the wording) I would add it as a sub point to 2.3, something to the effect of the referee has the power to correct a clearly incorrect scenario not described elsewhere in the rules.

Anyone a football official? I read once that the NFL (maybe college and high school too) has some rule provision for a "palpably unfair act" for the scenario where a player is clearly going to score a touchdown, and then is tackled by someone who ran off the bench. In that situation, a touchdown can be awarded rather than the unsportsmanlike, even though the ball never crossed the goal line. I sort of liken the basketball scenario to this. We may want to right an obvious wrong (even though we are the guilty party) but as of now there is no rule that allows us to do such.

Yeah, what he said.


I wish I had a cool signature

I think it could be done more specifically. This is a very specific scenario that is a close fit to 2.10 already. Easy fix, really.

1. Declare that incorrectly announcing 2 shots qualifies as having awarded an unmerited free throw.
2. State that in the precise scenario, time should be placed back on the clock because the ball is retroactively declared dead when the first FT was missed.

There may be flaws in my logic, but I think they can be easily resolved.

I agree, and maybe even some provision that this only applies when there is less than a minute in the 2nd or 4th quarters, as that is the only time when time running off the clock might have an effect. If this happens with 6 minutes left in the game, putting 2 seconds back on the clock is not necessary.

I don't agree and believe that you are potentially causing more problems. Retroactively declaring anything which isn't actually called during a basketball game is potential for disaster.

Rule Fundamental #16
 

I like this but; perhaps we already have a basis for putting time back on the clock. In the OP I think we all agree the officials correctly whistled the play dead when the missed FT was caught by a player while other players did not respond. (8.6.1) Yes, a second + elapsed but as Fundamental #16 says, "the whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)" when the first FT was missed.

It may sound good and feel like it is the right thing to put time on the clock BUT….
1. Who would have gotten the rebound had proper info been given??? Don't really know for sure. Likely defense, but not always…
2. Who has the arrow? maybe offense. maybe defense. Suppose it is offense. Defense gets most FT rebounds but not all. So maybe the defense would have gotten the rebound but the arrow favors offense. Offense gets ball under basket and you are going to give them more time. Defense screwed cause they would have gotten rebound. more screwed cause you now add time. Just an example.

If we SCREW up. Somebody IS going to get SCREWED. We just have to concentrate and communicate…always but especially at end of game. It may sound like the right thing to do but you may be making things worse…without rule support.

Not giving them anything. Just saying, if Rule Fundamental #16 would apply, time would be put back with rule support.

Somebody chopped in time. clock started. rebound. uh oh(error recognized). Whistle. Clock stopped. The whistle stops the clock. 8.6 cites 2-3 and 2-10. 2-3 because it isn't a correctable error. It's close so they cite 2-10 also. As Johnny D said 4 pages ago, 2-10-5 says consumed time isn't nullified.

This play is monumentally screwed up when you tell the players 2 shots. Putting time on the clock may sound like the right thing to do but see my example above. You could be doing more harm. If a screw up happens we just have to own it. Don't let it happen.

Who said the clock was chopped?

The clock wouldn't have been chopped in this play. The officials thought it was 2 shots. The clock was improperly started, which is why I could see putting the time back on the clock.

This is clearly my point of view. If we never directed them to start the clock, the clock should not have started. Just like if we were shooting 1 shots and the clock started immediately after the basket was made, we would not say, "Well the clock was started, we cannot adjust the clock."

The issue to me seems to be when the mistake was recognized as much as anything. If the mistake was noticed immediately, I am putting time back to where it was.

Peace

Well what if time was chopped though? Say the Lead incorrectly said 2, but the C didn't hear him, or whatever, and still chopped correctly as though it was 1-1. In this instance, you have the same confusion, the same time coming off the clock, but it takes the incorrectly started arguement off the table.

Plus, if the C was also incorrect, then this error might not even be realized until later, making it a true correctable error.

Well in the OP it never stated that the clock was chopped in by an official. Again, if it was chopped in and was done so incorrectly, you correct the situation.

The problem as I see it with this entire conversation is caused because officials did not communicate to each other. Now we are splitting hairs as to what should be done by rule where the rules are not covering this situation exactly. This is why you communicate every single FT situation to make sure you are shooting the proper number, especially when you are not the calling official.

It just drives me crazy sometimes that we argue over a rule that is not clear in all facets of the issue, but forget that things like this are very preventable.

Peace

And just a minor quibble with the title of the thread.....


The choice isn't bonus or double bonus. In a 1+1, the first shot isn't the bonus. The 2nd shot is the bonus for making the first. Once we get to 10 fouls, there aren't two bonuses. The singular bonus become automatic instead of earned.

"Clock should never been chopped in so I would put time back." BadNewsREF post 3. :)

I read the original OP as the lead being the only one thinking two shots. Assumed C chops as normal. Frankly, it likely doesn't matter. The timer is authorized to start the clock on touching even if you don't chop. The timer got it right, the officials got it wrong.

And yet, everybody here knows what we are talking about.

It matters in my game, b/c my whistle would have been immediate. The fact that the timer may have still start the clock would be irrelevant to me.

I don't think anybody has forgotten that this is preventable. Were just saying what we think the rules require in the OP.

If you have not forgot, then prevent this from happening so you do not have to worry about what some poster on an internet site is going to say if you correct the situation the way they think you shouldn't do. :eek:

See, problem solved. ;)

Peace

I'm talking about the OP. the player rebounded ball, a second or whatever went off clock and then they discovered it.

If you blow the whistle before the player ever touches it or at that same moment you can say the timer erred by starting it.

..and i don't think it would happen in your game.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Only 1.5 seconds ran off in the OP, that tells me the official recognized it immediately and blew his whistle. I would put time back on the clock similar to if extra time ran off after a time-out is granted.

OK, then worry about the rules as it is being discussed. Funny, never had this situation like this in my career. I do everything to make sure I am shooting the right number of shots.

Peace

You post without reading. I've never had it happen to me either. The very first thing i said is that if we screw up somebody is going to get screwed. don't let it happen. concentrate, communicate. i think that is what you said. I just went into what i think the rules require if you screw it up.

I'll let others decide if I'm talking about "the rules as it is being discussed."

if you are calling it a timing mistake than yes you can and should put time back on. If time runs off, then the official blows whistle, clock stops on whistle... i don't think the rules allow putting the time back on.

We can agree to disagree. I'm glad we can without arguing etc. thx

My comment was not about whether it happened to you one way or the other. My comment was to illustrate that this is very preventable. Just like we have CE that people go back and forth over and almost in every case you can prevent the situation if you slow down. There are many rules that you should learn if you cannot get the basic calls right by being careless. I know the rule for multiple foul, but I am not calling one because I am going to make a decision that will not allow me to go there. And if you determine that you immediately figured out the mistake, I do not see why you could not keep the clock where it is?

Peace

If referee calls the 7th foul on defense of half, isn't aware of 1 and 1, allows offense to inbound the ball. Offense Dribbles ball, 3 seconds run off clock. Whistle. It is a CE. We know 3 seconds ran off clock that shouldn't. The correction is to go back and shoot the 1&1. Rule does not allow us to put that 3 seconds back on. That's just the rule.
If you catch it "immediately" and you can say or want to say you discovered the error, clock shouldn't have started you can. My other point was that you may not want to put the time back either. We have to go to the arrow because of the screwup. If it points to offense they get ball under their basket and you add time. That Makes the situation worse.

Now you are changing the situation. That is not what happened in the OP. The OP told the teams the wrong FT situation. It was not a situation where we called a foul and did not shoot the FTs. That is very different than what we were talking about from jump. No one is advocating in a CE to put time back on the clock. Part of the CE situation is you go from the POE to make the correction.

Peace

Which is why I posted it as a "minor quibble". I'm not trying to change what anyone is doing, just bringing a bit of information to light.

Double bonus! :D

Which I'll say sometimes when someone asks why we are shooting 2.

I say ten fouls.

I say that sometimes also.

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