Another suspension looming?
 

Let's just say I wouldn't want to be that conference coordinator.I thought the clock expired but the quality of video is not very good.Even if time remained I wouldn't give a technical here for those few fans and players coming on the floor.Get whatever time the other team was entitled to up.Finish that inbounds play and get out.

By rule, a technical is incorrect here. See AR 269.

The clock says 0.0. If I am a fan or bench personnel, how do I know I shouldn't be on the floor?

Technical here seems very extreme. Maybe one of the NCAAW guys can shed some insight.

Rich-can you post NCAA AR.269? Or is the rulebook available online?

Online, PDF case book.

Found it Rich-

A.R. 269.
Team B leads, 67-66
-A1’s two-point try for goal is successful, but
there is no indication that time has expired
-Assuming that the successful try
was a game-ending and winning goal:
(1)Bench personnel from Team A; or
(2)Fans from Team A go onto the playing court to celebrate
RULE 10 / FOULS AND PENALTIES

RULING:
(1) When the celebration causes a delay by preventing
the ball from being promptly made live or prevents continuous
play: One bench technical foul shall be assessed to the offending team
and counts toward the team foul total. This technical foul is also
charged indirectly to the head coach and counts toward the coach’s
ejection.
(2)
An administrative technical foul shall be assessed to the offending
team. This administrative technical foul does not apply to the team
foul total. Any player from Team B shall attempt the two free throws and play
shall resume at the point of interruption. When the celebration does
not delay or interfere with play, the celebration shall be ignored.
(Rule 10-2.8.d and Penalty and 10-4.7 and Penalty)

Which is exactly why no T should have been assessed. Either...

a) The game was over, or...
b) The officials were going to have to stop play to correct the clock, meaning play wasn't going to be affected.

Rich is right. I see a suspension coming for this one.

Here's the entire game. The play in question is at 1:54:37

Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference - Portal

I tried to stop the video when the ball passed through the net and I got 0:00.2. Regardless, the officials knew immediately there should have been time on the clock and there was a monitor available. They're going to have a tough time explaining to their coordinator why they assessed a T given they had to stop everything to go to the monitor.

At 1:57:30 is the moment the home HC finds out about the T. I give him credit for not absolutely losing his s*&#.

What bothers me most about this is not that one official didn't know the rule, but that all three didn't know. And they took a minute to discuss it first.

You'd think one of them might say "wait, I'm not sure a tech is right here."

Then again, maybe one of them did, but he was an umpire and was overruled by the ref.

Either way, they screwed up and could pay for it.

Here is another account, which includes the following quote from the winning coach:

Winona State coach Scott Ballard acknowledged that he brought up the idea of a technical foul to the officials. “I put the bug in their ear," he told the Winona Daily News "You can’t have people storming the floor before the game is over. That’s interfering with the conclusion of the game. There were hundreds of them. It wasn’t like a dozen. It was the entire student section.”

Since when do referees take advice from coaches?

Coaches also give themselves too much credit sometimes. How many times does a coach stand up and ask for a travel just as we're about to make the call? You can bet some of them think they gave you the idea.

Another suspension looming?
 

Jiminy Christmas! Another group of officials who didn't bother to read and study the rules and case books before the season. If they all had, there's a very high chance at least one of them would have been able to confidently say, "there's a case on this, here's what we need to do."

Not to mention decency and common sense (which the case play supports, by the way) could have won the day in the absence of any rules knowledge. These guys clearly overthought this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If I'm going to make a call like this, I'm going to first make sure I absolutely have to.

I mean, if there's a loophole in the rules that allows me to avoid having to make such a call, I'm going to use it. Strictly speaking, it may not be right, but I want to stay within the spirit of the game.

For example, in a game earlier this season, my partner allowed the wrong team to inbound the ball. Right after the inbounder threw the ball in I blew my whistle to correct the call.

Now, yes... I should have seen the error right away and corrected it. And yes, once the ball is inbounded it's too late. However, like I told my partners at the time, I "recognized the error before the ball was released by the inbounder and simply didn't hit my whistle soon enough" (note the quotation marks).

It was a stupid error by us officials, and if I could help it I wanted to avoid that mistake giving either team an unfair advantage.

Interesting philosophy. I hope it serves you well. Luckily for the officials on the game in the OP, they didn't need to employ this tactic, all they needed was some rules knowledge to realize a technical foul wasn't warranted in their situation because the celebration did not interfere with the other teams ability to start the next play/inbound the ball.

Well, that was a rare time in which I had to skirt the rules. In fact, I can't think of another time I had to do such a thing. Maybe I should not do that at all, but I hear many officials (both here and elsewhere) talk about the keeping in the spirit of the game, which I take as making the game as fair as possible for both teams. As long as there's something in the rule book to back me up in doing so, I'm going to go with it.

I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this. If I should have allowed the wrong team to inbound the ball, I'll just deal with the repercussions.

As I read this, you have rule support to correct it. It's too late once the throw-in is touched -- not when the pass is released.

Duh. When the throw- in ends. Not sure why I thought otherwise. I guess it's the self-deprecating part of myself that assumes I messed up.

I am not seeing anything that suggests a T was not warranted other than overall opinion and philosophy. The AR says you can give a T.

And this is a college game where the supervisor might have informed them how to handle this situation. Unless we know, we are assuming a lot here.

Peace

Perhaps that was a typo, but that part where you said "can" is the whole issue being discussed.

It says if you deem the throw-in is not interfered with. I think that could be in question. I would try my best to never call this, but what were the officials told about this situation by their supervisor or the conference? Do w know if something similar took place before? There is a possibility the conference had a philosophy about these situations. And I am not seeing anything that says they are totally wrong other than what people feel about the situation.

Peace

You're right. Those officials may have had no choice but to call this. And hell, I'm not even a collegiate official. I just thought it was an interesting situation, and was curious what others (especially at the hs level) thought.

I am saying this not seeing the team with the throw-in even trying to put the ball back in play. They seem to accept the game is over, but the fact remains, if the team does not come onto the court, they might have tried to throw-in the ball. Again, I have been in enough meeting where the staff was told, "You are going to enforce this rule....." only to feel like "I hope this never happens in our game."

The OP suggests the officials were totally wrong here and it might have been a directive from higher ups about what should be done. It is possible IMO than they were doing what had previously been addressed.

Peace

They had to go to the monitor to put time back on the clock. Are you missing that part? The timer mistakenly allowed the clock to expire on the made shot.

The officials were totally wrong here.

Yes and it does not say that going to the monitor is a factor. The rule says nothing about that part, just states that the rules are unclear as to what is "interfering."

Peace

The clock expired. How can a throw-in be interfered with?

Easy if the philosophy is that the teams and fans cannot come onto the court until the game is ruled over. Again, this might have been addressed in previous meetings or years and the conference and their supervisor wanted it addressed. You say they are totally wrong, but what if nothing is done to the officials or the call is supported by the league? This is college, not a high school game. There are a lot of rules or memos sent during the year that influence rulings. That is really all I am saying. I am not reading anything you posted that says they were wrong or right, just stating there needs to be more information to know if they did not follow the proper procedure.

Peace

4 games, no postseason.

http://www.kttc.com/story/30929559/n...medium=twitter

Now we know.

Peace

I figured instead of arguing with you I'd use the Google. Figured something would be released by now.

I was not arguing, just asking for further information. You did not provide it in the first place so it drew further questions from me at least. I had been asking these same questions in multiple settings. This year has been one that we have gotten multiple memos about rules or changing interpretations. I am careful to suggest something is done wrong when the powers that be have the final say in these cases.

Peace

Anyone who assigns-is this about what you figured the punishment to be for this crew?

As a high school assigner, I wouldn't punish a crew at all. But this is different.

College is very different. College there is a little more accountability than high school level. You screw up a rule, more things happen to your schedule.

Peace

You wouldn't punish a crew at all? Wouldn't that even include this situation?

Nope. I'd educate, remediate, send clarifications to those I do assign. But I don't "punish" anyone who's getting $60 a game to work HS basketball for screwing up a rule or missing a call.

Subsequent assigning might depend on how well they accept the fact that they screwed up, however.

Yep, we know that you were wrong.

At the HS level, I would have gone 3 games and no postseason.

Of course you would.

I assign for 24 high schools for all varsity sports. While I believe in holding people accountable for bad behavior, for double booking and dumping games, for other malfeasance, I believe suspending officials for making an honest mistake sets a precedent I don't want to set.

Other assigners may feel differently, but I don't feel anyone is out to screw over a team, and I believe in keeping things in perspective.

What was I wrong about? I asked a question about the situation.

I work for a conference that wanted us to apply a rule differently than what was in rulebook because the conference determined that applying the actual rule would cause a problem.

And no one knew what took place in this case until I asked. That is the reason you ask questions.

But hey, you talk about many things on here you do not know the local or interpretations. Do you want me to point them out when they happen? You know all these uniform rules that the NF has, my state does not enforce them because of years of problems.

Peace

And then you just put this on a platter. ;)

Peace

And...because the clock expired, everyone thought the game was over.



+1

As JRut said, college is different. The 3 on this game weren't out to screw over the teams either but we're all warned/cautioned/whatever by our supervisors that messing up a call is one thing, kicking a rule is a totally different animal. Kicking a rule will lead to stiff consequences.

And I don't disagree with that. As you said, college is different.

Another factor mentioned to me by an official not on the Forum is this was a conference game. That official said maybe they might not get dinged quite so hard in a non-conference game because it only affects RPI (again, he said "maybe"). Conference games may affect whether you even get to the NCAA tournament - especially in D2 and D3 - because every school may not make the conference tournament.

I looked it up, they are both in the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference. So this is clearly was a conference game and I am sure the suspension was about the conference tournament.

Peace

I worked 2 college sports and I would expect to be sat down if I made this kind of mistake.

I'd expect to be sat down for this kind of mistake in a HS game.

With a varsity crew coming together and mucking up a game, I think there is probably at least some bad behavior in the form of not reading enough. ;)

Not only was this a conference game, but with no "T" these two teams are tied for first (both are 7-2) and with the errant call one team has a two game lead (one team is 8-1, the other 6-3). This call has a huge impact for the conference standings.

I have too much time on my hands when I start looking up Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference standings...

How would this be handled in HS game
 

Similar situation in HS boys game last night. Winning basket made with about 2 seconds on clock. ball inbounded and desperation shot taken and missed. Fans and benches empty. Meanwhile clock stops at 0.1 second as the old trail, new lead recognizes a time out. They end up putting 1.1 seconds back on the clock and issue a T - don't know if for fans or players running on to court.
NCAA covers this as this thread reveals, but no real direction in the NFHS rule or case book.

Thoughts?

Closest thing would be the following play but I'd be hesitant to use it2.8.1 SITUATION:

What guidelines should be exercised by the officials when spectators’ actions are such that they interfere with the administration of the game?

RULING: The rules book states “the official may rule fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.” It is significant to note the word used is “may.” This gives permission, but does not in any way imply that officials must call technical fouls on team followers or supporters for unsporting acts. Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this authority must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has demonstrated that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem and may, in fact, result in penalizing the wrong team because the official may not have proper knowledge as to which team's supporters were responsible for the unsporting act.

How about some punishment for not knowing the rule? Make some room for those who have dedicated themselves to knowing the rules. this wouls also send the message that you can't just keep sliding by with general rules. Sure Freshman, JV etc, education is needed and maybe no punishment but at the Varsity level? I think it is warranted, just to send the message that if you want to work varsity, you have to know your stuff.

I haven't heard any complaining about crews missing rules in 2 years. That's not to say that a crew hasn't missed anything -- I just don't hear about every detail in every game.

90% of what I hear has to do with coach behavior and technical fouls either given or not given.

That's fine. I don't expect you to. But something as egregious and outcome changing as this, I would think would at least warrant 1 game suspension, no post season, education, and maybe have them speak in the next meeting about what happens when you don't know the rules. Judgement is one thing but kicking rules is another.

I would suspect if there was some kind of penalty for kicking a rule there would be a whole lot less of it.

And the other real problem is that coaches don't know the rules either so they don't know when to complain.:D

Maybe, but there's also the fact that college pays a lot more. When you're making that much, you're up for a higher level of scrutiny.

This is usually the case. But not always.

Recently my crew dorked up a FT situation. I was L (U) and paying close attention to a problem child after I called a shooting foul on A1, so I missed that the shot went in. 2.8 seconds left second quarter. Partner (R) was lazy and didn't want to switch, and in the process he didn't tell me that the ball went in. So I announce two shots for B1, he's asleep by the table, and the players don't move after the first shot. FT missed. Then....buzzer. We figure it out and make sure the original FG by B1 is scored, and then we get together and I properly say that since no one moved and the FT was missed, we need to go to the arrow (which was in B's favor).

And this is where I sometimes loathe being the 36-year old U working with the 55-year old R. He says, "no, no, no, I'm not going to reward B with a possession with 2.8 seconds left when they're up by 15; it's A's ball, let's go."

:mad:

But it gets better! Coach B, to his credit, knows the rule! And he wants his AP throw-in, and the R still doesn't give it to him even after he got called on it. It was....uncomfortable (to say the least).

It's probably a good thing I'm not a coach, because I'd push this issue until I got a technical foul. I wouldn't do it every time, but there'd be cases where I did it because the calling official has to write a report here every time a technical is called.

I'd make sure my report included the fact that the R knew the rule and still refused to enforce it properly.

Then again, if I'm up by 15, I'm probably just sitting down and smiling.

I'm glad I wasn't the coach on this. I wouldn't have been as restrained as the coach was when informed of the technical foul. Winona St likely would have been shooting at least 6 free throws if I were coaching, because I'm sure I would have picked up two.

Unfortunately I have seen this too much as a student athlete at the DII level, and as a graduate of a DII university. The officiating at the DII level in many sports is not good. I recall to many games where the officials were more of a story than the game itself.

The best line I heard about DII officiating was "DII officiating is like DII playing, they aren't good enough to be at the DI level, but aren't doing it for the fun of the game like at the DIII level." It's so true in many cases (not all, as there are a lot of good DII athletes and officials).

Not all college conference officiating pays anywhere near as much as you think it does. DI major conference, yes absolutely. Work at the DII and DIII levels and some schools pay the same or less than what officials working high school make.

The DII conference I went to school in was one of the lowest paying in the country for DII and DIII when I was there. I worked HS ball with officials who also did games in the conference and they said there were high schools that paid more than what they got for a college varsity game. The only difference was that the conference started paying for some travel expenses, something that is very rare for high school officials in this state.

What if you were a 55 year-old U and the R was 36? Would it make a difference? Take that whole age thing out of your brain.

Because I got into officiating late in life, I work many college games with guys who are younger than me but have been doing 5-10 years longer than I have.

Difference being that a lot of D2 officials are also D1 officials.

I can't imagine a D2 or D3 paying less than HS. I work in three D3's and the lowest paying is $170. My JuCo pays $145.