is this considered a Kick in basketball
 

the offensive player has the ball and begins the motion to make a one handed pass.

the defender closes his legs to stop the ball from going through. does not extend his feet. the only movement he makes is closing his knees together

the offensive player throws the ball and hits the defender and defender gathers the ball and goes the other way.

is that a kick?

Yes. A kick is defined as intentionally striking the ball with your leg.

Even if the defender closes his legs before the pass is made?

Mind you the offensive player threw the ball at the defenders legs, the defenders feet never moved

I suppose I'd have to see it, but if the legs are already closed like this before the pass is even made, that's a no-call for me. It is, however, up to the official's judgment whether the ball's contact with the leg was the result of an intentional act.

The second part you keep mentioning about "the feet never moved" is entirely irrelevant. A kick needn't be done with your feet. It is intentionally striking the ball with any part of your leg.

This is a men's pick up league so no refs (call your own fouls ) so as you can imagine this leads to plenty of arguments.

In this case I'm the defender and as the offensive brought his arm back to make the pass I closed my legs before his release. To me this is not a kick as I was standing there and he threw the pass (being a one handed pass he could t stop the pass once his arm started moving forward)

As described here I have a kick ball violation.

You tried to stop the pass and in doing so intentionally struck the ball with your legs. Seems fairly simple to me and you are not going to get the benefit of the doubt when you "close your legs to stop the ball."

Even if the legs are closed before the pass? This is where the argument happened. I could see if he makes the pass between my legs and then I closed them. To me that's no argument.

Offensive player even said I closed my legs before the ball left his hand but there was nothing he could do


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You can keep asking the same question and my guess is that over 9 out of 10 officials here is going to here what you are describing and think that its a violation.

When you say, "the defender closes his legs to stop the ball" its pretty simple. Doesnt matter when the ball was released. As you described it with your own words it sounds like a clear case of intentionally striking the ball with your leg.

Violation. Its what the vast majority of refs would call in our college, HS, or rec league games. And its what is going to get called in a pick up league.

I don't mean to sound like I'm asking over and over hoping to get to hear what I want. I'm no ref but to me if a player closes his legs and then the defender still throws the ball in an attempt to go through his legs this to me would be a bad pass, not an intentional kick

Had he thrown the pass then I closed my legs that would be cut and dry as a kick

Thanks for the input


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Sure, maybe if you really closed your legs before the pass it isn't a kick. But I would argue it is extremely rare for this to happen. Most times you are reacting to the pass and that reaction is going to come as the ball is being released.

Why did you close your legs at that point? This makes no sense to me unless you knew he was going to try and pass through your legs (maybe he did this earlier in the game) and you were defending against it.

As Smitty said, why did you bring your legs together? It appears you did it because you figured out that's where the ball was going to be passed which means you (wait for it) intended to do it.

I'm willing to be the contrarian here.

If the defender closed his legs and then the ball handler throw the ball against his legs, there is no kicking violation.

Further, I think it's a stretch to convert closing legs to intentionally striking the ball. So, without the defender moving his legs towards the ball, I don't see how you could describe that as striking the ball as opposed to the ball striking the player, which is not a kicking violation.

So, as described in the OP (legs closed then pass) you cannot possibly have a kicking violation. If, as is more likely, the order was actually the reverse of that, you probably didn't have a violation as the ball likely struck the leg rather than the leg striking the ball.

In the same situation, if the defender jumped with their legs spread and the pass hit the front of the thigh of the defender, would you also have no violation?

Each play needs to be evaluated on it's own. HTBT.

If I determine it's intentional, I'll call a kicked ball. If I have to explain my call to a player or coach, if asked, I will.

If I determine it's not intentional, I'll hold my whistle, and explain that call too - if asked.

I'm not "pole vaulting mouse turds" here. Moving on.........

It's someone asking how to interpret a rule, which is certainly reasonable and creates discussion. If it's not of any value to you, why respond?

Smitty - I'm not saying the conversation is not of value. I'm saying, like everything else we interpret, on this call, the official, in their mind, needs to determine if it's intentional contact, or not. Once that is done, make the call and be done with it.

When did a person close their legs and why? Before or after a pass?

Was it intentional contact or not - that is the question the official needs to determine?

Me, I am of the mind that a person can close their legs, before a pass, and the ball can hit their leg, and I can hold my whistle. If asked, I can explain it....and the game can move forward.

i was crouched over leaning forward. when i saw him bring his arm back to pass, my first instinct was to close the 5 hole. i stood up and closed my legs. it wasnt like he did this all in one motion in .001 seconds.

he brought the ball back one handed (in my mind to make a bounce pass) he wasnt going around me and i heard someone cut behind me so my instinct was to close my legs. just as i closed my legs he still tried to pass the ball. which hit my shin/kneecap

again, this is a mens pickup league, we arent playing life and death or winner advances to the state tourney but there are always arguments as to what is a kick or what is a travel on an airball etc.

Did the ball strike the thigh or did the thigh strike the ball (and, if so, did the player intentionally strike the ball with the thigh)?

Putting your legs together is not a proper defensive stance, why would you do that?

well, im 45 and old :)

while its not proper it was to block a pass from going between my legs, i had my arms and hands ready to deflect a pass to either side

I think you and I have a different idea of what determines intention. In this scenario, I don't think it matters whether the ball strikes the thigh or the thigh strikes the ball. You're splitting hairs. What matters (to me) is whether the defender was attempting to defend using their legs when the ball struck the leg. Once the ball comes in contact with any part of the leg at that point, it's a kicking violation (to me).

what exactly constitutes the leg, is it shin down. or from the waist down? (honest question)

The exact wording is in the rule book, which I don't have on me at the moment. But it extends all the way up the leg - thigh included. I believe it used to be more restrictive several years ago, but I don't recall the exact wording of the older rule either.

if you have played pickup i am sure you run into this just the same as we do. so basically if a player gets hit in the nether regions, since it hits part of the leg that would be considered to be a kick?

we have played in the past it is the knee down

If the ball hits you in the nuts, that's just good defense. :p No violation there, although you may feel like you were violated in a different way.

So the bolded part should answer your question as to whether or not it was a kick. ;)

.....if i had moved my knees together while the pass was in the air.

however i closed my legs before the ball left his hand

No one intentionally moves the "nether regions" to get hit.

The rule used to be "knee down" -- it's been any part of the leg for more than just a few years now.

You intentionally moved your feet to "play defense on the ball" -- that's a violation.

And, while there is some room for interpretation on this, no one here was there to see it. And, if you have no refs, you're going to get a "discussion" during the game.

What should matter to you is what the rule says. If the defender does not intentionally strike the ball, it cannot be a kick.

I don't know what you mean by "attempting to defend using their legs." Do you mean by actively moving their legs? Or is it a certain leg position?

We have a specific definition for kicking. Let's use that.

i thought this was the case

again, had the ball in the been in the air when i did this i would agree. but changing your stance and having a player throw the ball off your legs doesnt sound like a kick to me.

in a similar situation....if a offensive player goes to save the ball out of bounds and throws it off a defenders leg and it goes out of bounds. is that a kicked ball or is it out of bounds offenses ball?

believe me, i have thought about paying a ref $20 for a nights work to alleviate all the headaches we go through

For a Men's league? Good luck with that! :)

we know what you did, and when.

It likely doesn't matter.

Play: Ball rolls away from players. A1 sees he ball coming toward him and doesn't move his leg. The ball rolls and hits A1 in the leg and A1 reaches down and picks up the ball. Ruling: Kicking violation.

Play: A1 and B1 are on the floor fighting for a "loose ball." The ball rolls into A1's legs and A1 clamps the ball so B1 cant' pull it away. Ruling" Kicking violation.

I think I was pretty clear in how I interpret the rule, and it appears others do as well. We will have to agree to disagree.

It wouldn't help, players would argue about kicked ball violations. :cool:

Bob, I never feel good about disagreeing with you. However, you're wrong on the first play. You cannot have a kicking violation from inaction.

Eastshire I agree with you. This isnt a violation. It is like we are deeming any time a ball hits the leg its a violation because you cant use your leg to defend a pass. What I mean is this. If a leg isnt moving it is not kicking. Even if I think he might pass I can move my legs into a defensive position. If I intend to move my leg to stop the ball its a kick. He wasnt moving his leg. If I think his feet were still moving into that position when the ball tries to go between his leg of course it is a kick. You would be calling intentional kicking on non-moving legs all the time because the kid put his leg in the passing lane and it was there before the pass hit it therefore he intentional kicked the ball. I would love to have more chime in here that if I put my leg down in the passing lane and it isnt moving that I kicked the ball intentionally without my foot moving because I knew it was going to have a ball hit it.

Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot.

How is a stationary leg striking the ball if it isnt moving....the ball hit it... the leg didnt move and hit the ball.

Interesting discussion.

the bolded there was my stance on it. i didnt jump in the way of the pass nor did i extend any part of my leg to deflect the pass. i stodd there and closed my legs before the ball ever left his hand. in my mind, thats not a kicking motion even though technically it hit my leg

It's what the official called it. End of story.

I'll leave the thread open, but the OP would be wise to stop repeating the same thing over and over and over again.

Well my friend let me tell you about something called the "Iron Triangle". :D

The "official" in a pick-up game? Usually that's the guy that makes the first call or guy that yells loudest or maybe the guy with keys to gym or only decent ball:D

im always 2 of the 3 and if i am really mad i can be the trifecta :)

Rules, what rules?
 

In pick up ball, a lot of rules as we know them are out the window. Most guys know this...ever tried calling a player control foul in a pick up game? You'd prob get laughed off the court.

ugh, dont get me started. we have at times counted out loud a guy who is in the lane for 17 seconds (we are old guys so chances for offensive rebounds are aplenty) he feels as long as he puts part of a foot out of the lane that negates it

Lane violations in pick up ball? What are you, a bunch of old lawyers and judges?

We need more opinions....

If A1 guarding B1 brings his feet together to prevent a pass between his legs and B1 who hasnt released a pass (B1 is old) tries to thread the needle between A1s legs and it hits A1 legs (which havent moved at all) is this a violation of the kicking rule?

What say you...?

I'm not calling a kick and rewarding bad offense:rolleyes:

Your just letting them play...

30 and over, but seriously, when an offensive player stands in the lane for literally 15+ seconds and doesnt move it gives an unfair advantage

we try to have some order to our chaos. it isnt a turnover but ball must be checked up