Over and Back ?
 

NFHS rules:
A1 has a throw in along the sideline, the throw in touches A2 in A's front court and bounces into back court where it is touched by A3. Is it Over and Back?

I believe that when the rule was changed to create team control fouls the rule makers then had to rule that the ball was in team control during a throw in and thus this possibly changed the ruling to over and back. However, the rules now state that for it to be O & B the ball must first be in Team Control "in the front court." But a throw in is from out of bounds and therefore has no status.

It will be over and back if the touch by A2 establishes team control in the front court and is the last touch in front court all at the same time.

No violation.

The NFHS really messed up the this area but has made it clear that there should be no change in the way backcourt violations are to be called.

There must be team control inbounds by the OLD definition of team control before the backcourt violation rules are in effect.

They need verbiage to state that PC is required inbounds before any BC violation can occur.

... and the title of this thread needs to be changed to "Backcourt?"

"Over and back" needs to disappear along with other hacky fanspeak phrases like "over the back," "reaching in," "on the floor," etc.

And sadly, these get a TON of use in our fraternity too :(

I agree. "Over and back", just sounds bad.

Not to hijack but for those of you who don't like "on the floor", what do you use or prefer? I don't mind it. I know that every call technically happens "on the floor" but I still catch myself using it at times. I try to wave off and say "before the shot" but old habits die hard.


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I occasionally let "on the floor" slip out. But I also try "on the dribble", "before the shot", "no shot".

Oh, no! ANOTHER backcourt thread? :D

(Not a violation per NFHS interp.)

"No shot"

"On the floor" is fanboy and wreck league talk.

Odd then that it continues in the vernacular of a LOT of referees.
Judgmental much?


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And more often than not, those referees aren't working high-level games. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

Judgmental? Find me a camp that teaches officials that it's acceptable to say "on the floor."

Camps I attend only care about that verbiage when the rule is being kicked. If the official making that ruling is correct, then observers/supervisors don't care.

I'm assuming you are referencing experiences at college level camps.

I only use "on the floor", "over the back" and "reach" when I'm putting the moves on a hot mom. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, they usually reply that I have "no shot". :(

Even when you do get a shot, it turns out you have a broken possession arrow.

This is good Basketball Foruming.

[QUOTE=BlueDevilRef;973113]Not to hijack but for those of you who don't like "on the floor", what do you use or prefer? I don't mind it. I know that every call technically happens "on the floor" but I still catch myself using it at times. I try to wave off and say "before the shot" but old habits die hard.


So what are the correct phrases to use ?

Could be worse...you could end up with an interrupted dribble.

There are many options....but on the floor is not one of them. "On the floor" is not informative. A player on the floor may or may not be in the act of shooting.

All I'm saying is that judgements and generalizations do not help anyone. But forgive me for not remembering that a few guys on here are the best referees ever and have never messed anything up and can only be bothered to leave the house to work Duke vs Carolina.

In my very humble opinion, you could use a very real dose of humility. If you read my post, I stated I was aware that I needed to try to get rid of the statement and simply asked what some of the other phrases were that guys used. Nobody needs you to imply they are a lesser official or a fanboy. But I'll wear that mantle proudly. It's why I'm here. Trying to get better and hell yes I'm a fan. I love this game, it's one of the reasons I call.


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THIS is the type of input that I was seeking and is actually helpful.


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You failed. Horribly.

It is an option, but not necessarily a good one. Every official knows what their partner means, whether you're going to admit it or not is something else.

As for good methods, anything that lets your partners/players/coaches know the player wasn't in the act of shooting. Some sort of, "NO SHOT!" tends to be the best since it applies to so many situations.

"On the floor" can make you look like an idiot. Players jumps and your call on the foul is that he was passing the ball, not shooting. The moment you say "ON THE FLOOR!" you're going to get murdered. You just told everyone you thought the obvious airborne passer(shooter in their eyes) was on the floor.

I agree, DAD. "On the floor" is ambiguous, at best. After all, habitual shooting motion can certainly begin before a player has left the floor jumping for a try. Should they not be awarded 2 FTs simply because the foul by B1 was committed while A1 was beginning his/her habitual shooting motion while "on the floor"?

Sorry. I should have just started a new one.


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+1

Never fails, and it's exactly what you mean.

scrapper offered the perfect solution at the time: mirror the NCAA wording.

TC is not changed, but TC fouls include fouls committed by members of the TI team during a TI.

Exactly. Pretty much how fouls by an airborne shooter are considered PC fouls even though there is no PC.

But, what about after the throwin is touched inbounds but before there is control. That is no longer "during" the throwin. Need to have words in effect to cover the window between when the throwin ends and when there is really team control.

My biggest issue with "on the floor" is that most of the time, the shooting motion begins discernibly before the player leaves the floor. It actually means nothing and perpetuates a myth. It really is similar, in my view, to "over the back" and "reaching in" being used by officials.

As long as "illegal use of hands" and "holding" are allowed, I'm OK. :rolleyes:

The reason you don't say "On The Floor" around here is because we have one smartass official who, if you do, at halftime or after the game will ask you, "WHY DID YOU CALL THAT FOUL ON THE FLOOR? WHAT DID THE FLOOR DO?!?!?!?":D

Agree new wording needed
 

I am glad the discussion returned to my question about backcourt violations (I quickly learned not to use meaningless "old school" terms and phrases). As I originally alluded to I believe that the backcourt violation interpretation was not sufficiently updated when NFHS created "team control fouls" and then had to quickly rule that there was "team control" during throw ins. It would be much clearer if the rules clearly stated that has to be player control in front court after a throw in.

Ha!! That's funny and will be very helpful in not using that phrase anymore. I'll hopefully recall that the floor can't foul anyone.


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It doesn't need to be in the FC, just inbounds at some point.

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This is a problem many here have predicted each year as the NFHS failed to adequately fix the rule to match their (repeatedly) stated intention: not affecting anything except whether free throws are shot.

Don't be ridiculous. This is a forum for grown adults who often have differing opinions. I didn't bully you, or call you a fanboy. But yes, often fanboys are the ones yelling "on the floor." And I'm only a high school official, and I'm not afraid to admit it, so you can take your Duke-UNC comment elsewhere.

Don't attack my humility because you got butthurt about me making a statement that upset you.

Any camp I've ever been to, clinicians most certainly care about an official saying "on the floor." But you and I go to different types of camps I'm sure.

How would you even know this? What does different types of camps mean?

Because I've been to my fair share of camps and not one clinician that I remember has failed to correct an official using "on the floor"?


College vs. high school

I can't recall this ever happening at a camp. Then again, I can't recall anyone ever saying "on the floor" at a camp.

You Don't Say ...
 

Didn't call me a fanboy? Weird how that is exactly what you did and now deny it.

If you don't like the verbiage, I was looking for input on what words you use, not to be insulted. I'm not butthurt, but I'm not going to be chastised either.

Contrary to popular belief around here at times, it's pretty easy to not be a jerk when replying


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