So...is the term "extended arm bar" unclear?
 

I didn't think so. For over a year now, I though I knew what this meant, particularly as it applies to 10-6-12.

I've been taught at clinics and camps, and seen on NFHS slides at the master clinic, that this meant the defender placing their forearm on the offensive player...away from their own body.

Tonight, at out biweekly area meeting, the topic du jour was 10-6-12. The official presenting, or leading the discussion, is insisting that "extended" means the arm istelf is extended....as in at the elbow, into nearly a straight arm. He is explaining this as it relates to post play, and explicitly says that arm bars (as in forearm in the back of the offensive player, with the ball) are normal and legal.

I was stunned. This is a very good official, someone who also works college ball. I injected my thoughts, and the room was somehow split on the issue.

Am I nuts? Isn't the term extended arm bar plenty clear? As anyone else run into these issues within your area? Working with officials from other areas?

Translation: I'm very hesitant to call this and I need to justify it somehow.

He's making stuff up because he doesn't want to change and call it the way the NFHS wants it to be called. Being in a position of respect, people are going to believe him, unfortunately. The NFHS very clearly doesn't want defenders to be using their hands/arms to play on opponent with the ball. It is that simple.

There is a picture in the nfhs handout stuff for this year i believe. an arm bar is the arm bent at the elbow, as we know. an extended arm bar means it is out away from the body. still bent etc. when the arm is straightened, it becomes a stiff arm. not an arm bar.......

There might be the cause for valid concern on your part. This may be an accomplished official who is impressing an NCAA rule on a group of NFHS officials. Not an infrequent situation.
One local assigner here is a college referee who also does high school. But he makes great efforts to always maintain a healthy and accurate distinction between the two when speaking with officials who do either one or the other. He knows his audience and is careful not to intermix the two when differences in approved mechanics and rules exist.
I thought I overheard him saying the other day that NCAAM changed their rules to allow an extended armbar in the post. I might have heard him wrong. Can anybody here who also does NCAAM refute or verify this?

NCAA-M rules allow a defender to use an armbar in the post area, on a player with the ball while that player has his back or side to the basket.

I disdain college level refs giving clinics/offering advice to NF audiences. They frequently mix up mechanics and confuse NF level refs. Often they will say something like "...in high school ball we do this & that but in college ball we do that & this". Wish that they would let NF level refs be the sole presenters at seminars wherein NF refs are the primary audience or wherein NF type information is to be presented. I worked a NF game with a ref who would hold up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart at me when I was giving the ball for a throw in after a substitution. I presumed that was his way of telling me "OK, we now have 10 players in the game, go ahead and start throw-in." Later he told me that two hands up meant "stop/pause", I told him that his mechanic was confusing.

Why would this confuse you? Wouldn't the context of the game situation help explain whether or not he was ready? If he was telling you "stop/pause" and you thought it meant he was ready for the throw-in to start, it seems there are other issues.

Besides, this has nothing to do with NCAA mechanics.

I use that all the time -- and I only work HS basketball.

Inconsistent and/or incorrect mechanics (and uniforms) seems to be the hallmark of H.S. officiating across the nation, from everything I've observed, worked with and been told to do for the past 6 or 7 years I've been working at the varsity level. Difficult to say why, but the infusion of men's and women's college officials is definitely part of the reason.

At the end of the day, though, managing a good game is the recipe for personal success even though state level evaluators and assignors may "say" they don't agree and will knock poor mechanics despite a well managed game all day long.

If 2 hands up means go ahead to you and is confusing then there isn't much to say is there. It's also used since it's 3 man and you want both to show both partners, "hey hold up"

Two hands up, palms facing a partner typically means "I've counted 10 on the court." where I'm from.

A single raised arm with open palm is the stop or "do not proceed yet" sign.

A point or thumbs up is the "good to go" sign.

Those are all things I see in my area from officials at every level....H.S. NAIA and NCAA.

You have an, "I've counted 10 signal"? I thought Hand/hands up means hold on and hands down means lets play.

A thumbs up from me means there's 10....cause we're not "good to go" if there are 9 or 11 on the floor.

That's how I interpret it. And, that is what most guys I know that use it are trying to communicate.

Since when is this an "inconsistent and/or incorrect mechanic"?

At some point most officials stop sweating the small stuff. I hit that sometime after working at the varsity level for 6-7 years.

Exactly.

"Small stuff" is subjective, I suppose.

Who gives a two-handed stop signal?

The two handed signal customarily given here is done with the fingers spread, indicating 10, and is followed by a point or thumbs up. It means: I have counted the players and there are 10.

If given with fingers closed, I can see it meaning wait, but why then use both arms?

Like I said generally with 3 man its 1 arm for each official.

Honest question: Don't you just need to signal the official handling the restart? Also, why can't they see a single arm as well as two?

Just the way I was taught. Usually let the C take over the substitution process. I use it rarely. Usually just one hand up, but 2 is acceptable.

It also changes for many people as time goes on.

These days it's mostly about positioning, playcalling, and game management for me -- the rest is typically "small stuff."

When I'm working a HS game, I'm a HS official. When I'm at an HS association meeting, I'm a HS ref. When I pregame a HS game, I talk about HS rules and HS mechanics. I despise it when a HS official makes an incorrect generalization about "college" officials.

What does having two hands up to stop play have to do with college or HS mechanics? Can you show me where in the NFHS signal chart that holding up two hands with open palms and fingers spread apart is the signal for 10 players being on the court?

So it has nothing to do with someone being a "college" official, as our friend from Kansas was insinuating.

I could see the use of two hands to stop play during a substitution. Typically, the T would beckon the subs and if the subsequent inbound play is administered by the L then a one handed stop sign by the T could also be interpreted as a ready to proceed (mirrored chop).

I love this attitude and approach. Just wish it was more widely held by college/h.s. crossover officials in my area. That being said, there are some talented college level officials in our area that do a fantastic job of sharing game management experiences and knowledge with our local h.s. officials. So, I'm not here bashing college officials for them being college officials. There are differences mechanically that flow downward into the h.s. ranks that the State does not like at all. Yet, on the flip side, there are some outstanding "higher level thinking" things that are also shared and discussed that make we h.s. officials better, as well.

This is why I don't raise my arm for a mirrored chop until after the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in.

If this had a "Like" option I would click on it.

Yup, me too.

I also do this. And typically, if I need to tell my partners to hold up, I will put both my hands up so that they don't incorrectly assume I am raising my arm for a mirrored chop.

I still want to know this though: If you are administering the throw-in and your partner is doing anything to tell you he is not ready, why can you not figure that out on your own??

I don't need anyone to tell me they have counted 10 because I've already done it.

Maybe there is a sub approaching the table you didn't see, or maybe there is a player finishing up a quick shoe lace tie that you didn't see, or maybe the third official is taking care of something 80 ft away that you might not immediately recognize...this list could go on. But, that is the idea. I've yet to work with an omniscient partner. Nor am I. So good communication - verbal and non verbal - is always essential.

I don't think that he can, because the signal you describe is labelled on the NFHS Signal chart as the signal to indicate a 10 second backcourt violation. :rolleyes:

While it isn't official and most don't use that signal....there are some around here that do exactly that....two hands up in front of them to indicated they have counted 10. I don't do it, but I've seen it done a few times a year. It is an incorrect mechanic and certainly far from clear and consistent.

Same here.....

There's nothing wrong with communicating with your partners that you have counted the players. If there's one thing we can learn from soccer referee Graham Poll, it's not to assume you or your partners can count to two.

I have never seen a one-handed stop signal that could be mistaken for the pre-time chop signal. The first is done shoulder height with the arm extended to the front; the second with the arm fully extended above the head. No reasonable person is going to mistake these two signals.

If those two signals were universal, that would be true. However, i see as many people who use a hand straight up for both as have a difference in the signals.

Fair enough. Personally, I've never seen someone use the same signal for both.

I've seen plenty of officials who just walk around with their hand in the air when bringing in subs, not pointed in any general direction.

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I don't think I've ever had an issue with this situation. The guys on my crew are pretty good at eye contact and a nod or a point if they're ready. Usually if they're calling a sub in, waiting for a tied shoe, etc. they are looking in that direction. I can't think of many cases where I put the ball in play without eye contact and a nod.