Points off the board??
 

V1 fouls H1. Her 5th, team 8th. Teams line up for the free throw/s. Officials do not recognize signal from table that it is V1 5th. Ball with free thrower who is in shooting motion as buzzer sounds. Shot goes in. Officials remove V1 AND the point, bring in sub, then reset for the "1 and 1".

The whole process was a mess, but the "fix" was, too. It could have been worse I guess had the initial shot or it's "replacement" missed. Anything I am missing here? It's not how I would have handled it.

Count the bucket and get a sub in for the second shot. You can't take points off for this and the horn does not kill the play.

Agreed.

Allow me to ask Hartsy's followup question: What if she missed?

I would just readminister after we replaced the DQd player. Thoughts?

+1

agreed I would reshot.

Until play is whistled dead V1 remains in game. Next dead ball following the miss, remove/replace V1 and then continue at POI, which would be possession arrow if whistle sounded before either team secured the rebound. This might get ugly if only one team reacted on the miss due to the horn sounding.

What on earth is this you are describing?

You take a player with their 5th foul out as soon as it's discovered. You do not wait for the next dead ball.

Yes, its just a matter of WHEN the whistle blows. If you recognize the error before the rebound is secured, then POI. If after, it goes to team in control when whistle blew.

What whistle?

Harsty, B1 starts her motion, horn sounds erroneously, she misses, blow it dead. There is no rebounding.

Replace A1, readminister the 1-and-1.

Same scenario, free throw is made. Count the free throw, have A1 replaced, shoot the second.

The one you blow when you finally figure out that V1 had 5 fouls, or the one you blow when the horn sounds during play again. The NEXT whistle, regardless, will be the next dead ball.

It's not gonna be good no matter what. Especially on a miss. But in no case do you take a point off the board, or shoot another free throw.

Right, but if blown dead before rebounding, go to POI, not another shot. It will be ugly. Better hope she makes it, like what I saw last week.

Exactly. Which is why you readminister. NOBODY will have an issue with this.

In this scenario, in my game, there is another shot coming. Whether it's the first or second simply depends on whether she made it.

Technically there is no rule basis to award a "replacement" free throw in this situation. Game activity occurring before the officials are notified of the disqualification should all stand unless it is a CE, which this is not. That said, the horn sounding during the throwing motion is not part and parcel to a free throw attempt. I could see awarding another shot in this situation because of that but I think you're stretching the rules a bit. Now if the shot is missed without a horn during the throwing motion, I think you have to let the shot stand.

From 2-11-5:

Thinking a little more about this, if she is still in her motion when the horn sounds, it is probably a good idea to blow the play dead and figure out what the table needs.

My sense of fairness says that if it's missed, she should get another shot, however my knowledge of the rules says that might not be so easy. Even if no one takes issue (which they might), that doesn't make it correct. Is there any argument to make that this could be considered disconcerting? I don't have my rule book with me, but is disconcertion defined as an act done by a player?

The rule is that "no opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." This is why I said it was a stretch.

You're turning a table goof into an official completely mucking up the entire play. I'm guessing there was no pregame with the table about when to and when not to sound the buzzer. You would never blow you're whistle right after as an official and screw up the play by going to the AP arrow.

If the official can be quick enough to blow the whistle while the ball is still in the player's hand(s), then the player gets a "replacement" shot either way.

Trying this without my Rule Book, which is dangerous. Here goes...

A common time when the horn does not nullify a point(s) being scored is when a last second shot is attempted before the horn goes off. However, should the horn sound before the shot is attempted, the try is waved off.

So can we apply this to the free throw?

The free throw attempt is not a try for goal until the ball is released, therefore if the horn sounds before the free thrower releases the ball we should wave off the try for goal (free throw).

If we can apply that here, the official should've whistled the play dead when the horn sounded, since it was before the free throw try. The result of the try, should the free thrower release it anyway, doesn't count either way. Then find out why the horn was sounded, fix the situation (in this case remove the DQd player), and then re-start from the POI (the first free throw).

I'm going to take a deep breathe and prepare for the backlash.

End of a quarter, regulation, OT, etc isn't the same thing as this scenario. That rule doesn't apply.

If the horn was sounded as she was shooting, then the R could invoke 2-3 and allow a replacement FT due to her being disturbed by the table crew.

If the ball had already been released when the horn sounded and she misses the shot, then the proper ruling is to use the AP arrow to award possession following the substitution, if the officials stopped play and recognized the horn. If the officials elect to ignore the horn, then play should continue until the ball is in the control of the team with the player having five fouls. At that point the scorer should sound the horn and play should be halted to DQ this player.

We had another thread on this just last week.

Not the scenario.

This solution makes no sense. If you know that there is a player on the court with 5 fouls that should have been DQed, why not stop play immediately and DQ them? Are you really going to allow them to play defense? What if they are the tallest player on the court, and end up blocking a potential game winning shot, when they shouldn't have even been on the court?

About the only reason I would delay a whistle to take care of the DQ is if the other team has the ball and is headed down on a fast break for an uncontested layup. Otherwise, I'm blowing it dead when I realize it, no matter which team has the ball, and making the replacement to get the player with 5 fouls out of the game.

The rule is that the scorer/timer should not sound the horn to call attention to a player illegally in the game until the ball is in possession of that player's team. If the scorer sounds the horn while the ball is live, officials are to ignore it if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise the official can stop play to see why the horn was blown etc. Most times the officials will stop play to see what the scorer/timer's issue is...In Nevada's hypo, the officials who ignored the horn likely didn't know it was the player's 5th foul. If they do realize its the player's 5th foul they should kill it unless there is an immediate scoring play in progress.

note also--if the free throw is missed, horn sounds but doesnt affect players rebounding, i will hold the whistle until the rebound is secured. then see what the horn was about-unless scoring play in progress. i may not kill it right after the horn sounds. if you do there's no team control and you have to go to the arrow as Nevada says. depends on the situation.

Are you saying if it doesn't affect players rebounding? Because I think it almost certainly would. I would much rather blow it dead and have to go to the AP arrow then deal with having to explain to a coach who's players didn't react in the confusion and have now lost possession of the ball. (Especially if a teammate of the free thrower rebounded and had a quick uncontested put back!)

He said he'd blow the whistle after the rebound. If he saw no defensive players move then he could adapt accordingly.

On another note, I really doubt players are going to just give up after hearing the horn; especially if it's not an end of quarter/extra period situation.

If there's any confusion we have to kill it. If horn blows later it may not have an effect on who would get rebound. Inside guy may already have position and ball coming right to him. As I said, depends on situation-what I see-how players react. Most of the time it does have an effect. I am going to assess situation rather than just blow whistle cause horn blows. Thx

I disagree. I think that most of the time, when the horn goes off, MOST players stop, because most of them don't realize that it's the WHISTLE that matters, and not the HORN.

Maybe in the land of bad coaches. No way I'm buying this at any kind of decent level.

Do you really think most coaches specifically cover that?? I know most coaches will preach 'play till the whistle...' or something similar, but I seriously doubt they also say, "Oh and hey, everyone listen up. In case the horn goes off, and you're pretty sure it's not the end of the quarter, then it's likely an error by the timer, and you should keep playing because only the official's whistle officially stops play..."

I think it's more of, "Don't stop unless you're sure you heard a whistle." Every other noise is just ignored.

I just haven't seen much to make me think otherwise, small sample size perhaps. It's so rare for not only a table to screw up the horn, but also a player to stop because of it.