post play
 

Post play............A5 (on offense and playing in the post area), does not have the ball, and B5 (defending him), has a elbow on him (not extended). So far nothing. Ball gets thrown in to A5, B5 keeps his elbow on him (but not extended). Do we have a foul if B5 keeps his (unextended) elbow on A5?

Thanks in advance

If you mean that he happens to be touching him with the elbow or arm bar, then I would agree that is not likely a foul. But if it is being used in any way to either contact the post player, then I likely have a foul. It is really hard to say without actually seeing the action. I will give benefit of the doubt to a player that just has their arm in front of their body in a more natural movement, but when they extend at all, I have a foul.

Peace

Not sure why a defender would want to have his arm trapped between his and the post player's body so he couldn't raise it to block a shot, but I guess that's on him. What you describe sounds legal.

This is addressed specifically in the NCAA rule set, so I assume you are talking about NFHS rules. Does the FED differentiate between post players with the ball and other ball handlers, or all they all treated the same?

They actually made an editorial change this year to say they are all treated the same.

Our assn has made it clear that an arm bar extended is a foul. Arm bar next to body might be a foul here if they are trying to influence RSBQ, but it's more likely just poor defense


I wish I had a cool signature

Has to be an extended arm bar for an automatic foul. Wording was changed to make sure we apply post play to the rule.

10-6 ART. 12

The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position

b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.

And what does "extended" mean to everyone? I don't think everyone defines that the same.

To me, if the elbow is away from the body with the forearm on the opponent, it is extended....and becomes a foul if the opponent has the ball.

Agreed -- but I think we also need to emphasize "placing" as an intentional act (as opposed to merely "having" or "protecting")

This was actually listed a rule change (which didn't change the rule at all). :rolleyes:

Does it matter?'

If they have it up and the opponent moves into to, I give them a moment to retract it but they can't keep it there any more than they can stick an arm out to the side to restrict movement.

Agree.

OP said wasn't extended so I left it up to his judgement.

I think so.

If the defense moves into the offense, then I use RSBQ to make any call.

If the offense "places" one of the four absolutes on the defense, then it's a foul without regard to RSBQ.

If the defender has the arm up in the form of an arm bar, but short of contact and the offensive player backs into it, do you consider that "placing" if they don't drop it?

If I understand the rules correctly: Almost all touching of a ball handler is now a foul. Seems the consensus is that the game has gotten too rough; so calling LOTS of fouls is an attempt to return basketball to a finesse game again.
Though all my games thus far are going longer - I do like the emphasis on freedom of movement.
I'm hearing from assignors: 40 plus fouls a game is our new norm; coaches want and expect more fouls!
Whether this generation of players will adjust... that's another story!

Hasn't been much of an issue from what I've seen. After one game I have yet to see a team continue to be foul happy.

This is from NCAAW, but I think it would apply to HS as well:

This season, the rules committee revised the guidelines for determining legal and illegal contact on a post player in control of the ball in the lane area with her back to the basket. The new guidelines state that in this situation, the defensive post player “may place a forearm or one hand on the
offensive player”. Additionally, in this same scenario, it is illegal for the defensive player to contact the offensive post player with her body, leg or knee.

It is important to remember that, in either case, it is the defensive player who initiates the contact with the offensive player. If an offensive post player with the ball causes contact with the defensive post player and the contact is with non-permitted body parts, this is not a foul on the defensive
player. Also, a defensive post player is never required to vacate a legally established position because of the movement of an offensive player (Rule 4-18.3).

Officials have to know which player initiated the contact. When the defensive player places body
parts in excess of what is permitted on the offensive post player with the ball, a foul shall be called on the defensive player. When the offensive post player causes contact with the defender and this
contact is incidental, a foul shall not be charged to the defender; when this contact is illegal, a player-control foul shall be charged to the off

Here's what's in the NFHS Rule book this season regarding post play:

Now where I find issue with these statements is NF doesn't define a post player in the rule book (if you do a search of the rule book online the word "post" is only found four times and all instances are in this season's PsOE). NCAA - women and men - do. That gives college officials a better starting point in terms of handling post contact.

In high school i don't believe it is legal to use the arm bar to displace OR PREVENT an offensive player from getting to a spot. When an arm bar is extended it's about a foot away from the body. there is space between the two players. either player is entitled to this space if they get there first etc. If an offensive post player without the ball tries to back up into that open space and runs into and is clearly prevented from going back by an arm bar, i believe that is a foul in high school. Holding/blocking etc. It is not in NCAAM.

As Cameron said, i view it the same as sticking an arm out and holding/blocking etc. When the offensive player backs up into the arm bar it has to "collapse" in high school if the offensive player wants to move back into that open space.

If a post player catches the ball, i will give the defender a moment to collapse it, raise hands up etc. if the arm bar isn't on the offensive post player but he dribbles back into a defender's arm bar i need to see the arm bar collapse immediately or hands go up. Defender can't prevent opponent from backing further with the arm bar or leave it on the defender. NCAAM are allowed to keep the arm bar in place until the post player faces up. This is my view of the arm bar. I havnt seen anything that makes the arm bar legal to prevent offense from going anywhere.