In-bound pass that goes into the basket
 

Time is running out in the 4th quarter and Team B has just tied up the score at 99 a piece. A4 throws a hail mary and A5 tries to catch it on his own free throw line and it deflects straight up and comes down in Teams A basket. Does it count? Any rule reference would be appreciated.

When A5 tries to catch it and simply touches the ball there is 5 seconds left and when it goes through there is still 2 seconds left. Is this a legal goal/attempt?

I will look up 4-42-5. SC Official.

The title of this thread is erroneous. When does the throw-in end? See 4-42-5.

And more information is needed to answer your question. When did time expire? It sounds like A5's deflection was not a try or tap for goal, meaning that it would not count if time expired before it passed through the net.

Score two points for Team A because a Live Ball went through its Basket before Time expired.

MTD, Sr.

Yes.

No.

Bob:

Thanks for giving a more accurate answer and concise answer.

MTD, Sr.

Basically as long as an inbound pass is know by the officials to have been touched it then can enter the basket and count. As long as it doesnt involve something like basket interference.

I want to thank those who posted.

Yes. Once the throw-in pass is touched inbounds, the throw-in is over.

Also, make sure you understand the difference between a try/tap and any live ball entering the basket. It matters with respect to the expiration of time.

And please use "throw-in" instead of "inbounds pass".

Big T, generally yes, but note the correction above.

Case Book 5.2.1 SITUATION D (2013-14) has the wording mentioned by the most recent posts.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

5.2.1 SITUATION D: Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a
throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in
pass is deflected at A’s free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly
through A’s basket. RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b).
The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player and the live
ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for
goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4)

If the touch was not a try or tap, then the basket would not count if time expired before the ball goes into the basket. Since the ball went into the basket before time expired, it does not matter how the ball got into the basket as long as an action was not illegal that caused it like a BI.

Peace

Add Another Layer To The Cake ...
 

Also, since it was not a try, a goaltending violation could not have been called.

Ok, Smarty, if an official did mistakenly whistle for a goaltending violation under the circumstances set forth in the Case Book play, please inform us of how the game would be resumed and why.

In-bound pass that goes into the basket
 

Good question. Inadvertent whistle, but is there team control? I vote yes because of the rule change a few years ago, so give the ball to Team A at the OOB spot closest to where the ball was when the IW occurred.

This is not the same debate as the one we frequently have in regards to the backcourt rule, where TC *inbounds* is required.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nevada:

Ooo!! Ooo!! I know!! I know!! Please call on me!! Please call on me!!

MTD, Sr.

Point Of Interuption ...
 

Inadvertent whistle. The throwin ended when the passed ball touched, or was legally touched, by another player inbounds. No team control (no team foul involved). Go to the arrow.

4-36 Point Of Interuption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle, an
interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal,
double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10.
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this
activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in
control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved
when the game is interrupted.

But where? Site of the throwin, or spot nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred?

My guess: Spot nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.

Am I right? Did I win a prize?

But who gets the Ball for the Throw-in, and why? And what kind of Throw-in will it be?

MTD, Sr.

Do I Get to Pick A Prize From The Top Shelf ???
 

4-36 Point Of Interruption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle ...
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
c. ... alternating-possession throw-in when neither team is in
control ...

Did I win a prize?

When does TC start? When does TC end? Does the throw-in ending have anything to do with TC?

(or, am I asking these questions to lead you down the proverbial garden path?)

I was trying to lead him down the primrose path myself.

MTD, Sr.

C'mon bob jenkins, Please Just Give Me The Answer ...
 

1) When the ball is at disposal of the inbounding player for a throw-in.

2) When the throwin ends (when the passed ball touched, or was legally touched, by another player inbounds).

3) Yes. Team control ended when the throwin ended, when the throwin pass was deflected, by a player in bounds, at A’s free-throw line.

Point: Team control on a throwin is only for the purposes of a team control foul during a throwin. There was no foul in the casebook play, so team control ended when the throwin ended, when the throwin pass was deflected (touched, or was legally touched) by a player in bounds, at A’s free-throw line.

Confucius says: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

Just give me the damn fish.

You are right. we don't know who gets the ball because we don't know who had the arrow. It will be an AP throw in nearest the location of the ball. case plays for POI when no team in control say nearest location of ball.

Team control during a throw in says it lasts until the ball is secured. However, as you pointed out, the sole purpose for this rule--stated when it came out--is to avoid shooting free throws when the throw in team commits a foul during the throw in or after it ends but before a team possesses the ball. For any other situations the regular team control rules apply.

Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle ...
 

Nearest location of ball?

7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle inadvertently: (c) while A1's unsuccessful three-point try attempt is in flight; RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure at a spot
nearest to where A1 was last in contact with ball when the whistle was sounded.

A throwin at the spot nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred, is only for when there is team control when the interruption occurred. There was no team control when the interruption occurred in this situation.

It looks like the alternating possession throwin should be at the closest spot to where the throwin pass was deflected at A’s free-throw line.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7137/7...40b397d7_m.jpg

Do I still get a prize?

Hasn't this become a great thread?

i agree about your ball location. I will give you a fish. We'll see what Nevada says.

All I Won Was A Lousy Fish ???
 

Don't forget Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., and bob jenkiins.

Basketball rules are tough. There has got to be an easier sport to officiate.

Croquet, Mark Padgett?

I'm going to take half of the fish back. your number 2 above is off. Team control for throw in purposes MAY not end when the throw in ends. If the ball is deflected the throw in is over but if the throw in team fouls before the ball is secured it is still a team control foul. It is a fiction created for the sole purpose to avoid shooting Fts when the throw in team fouls before throw in ends or possession secured. Your answer is right in the end but i am taking off for this slight error….

Is That You Mr. Dalton ???
 

Did you teach high school chemistry back in 1970?

took naps..in kindergarten...

Actually, from what my friends tell me, football rules are the ultimate in complexity. I am sure that Jeff and Tony can weigh in on that.

But the easiest is futbol, I mean soccer. I officiated H.S. soccer from 1993 to 2005, and nothing infuriated those sports officials who only officiate soccer, was my position that I could take any competent H.S. basketball official and make him a competent H.S. soccer official in less than one H.S. soccer season. But the reverse was not true for soccer officials.

MTD, Sr.

Read 4-12-3 and 4-12-4. Do they apply?

Team Control During A Throwin ...
 

4-12: ART. 3 Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.
ART. 4 While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of
the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

Even in a throwin situation where the concept of team control is only necessary for the charging of a team control foul during the throwin?

So, if inbounder A1 has a throwin, passes it onto the court, where it's batted, tipped, and tapped, around, pinball style, by players from both teams, none of whom gains player control, and during which no foul by Team A was charged, then did Team A still maintain team control during that entire sequence of events, even when the throwin ended when it was touched by a player inbounds? So, if Team A fouled during end of this pinball situation, would it still be considered a team control foul, even though the throwin ended?

It seems to me that team control on a throwin, was given, by definition, to the throwin team when the NFHS decided that a foul by Team A during said throwin would be a team control foul with no free throws, and that team control during a throwin was not relevant to other situations, for example, backcourt.

Comments On The 2011-12 Revisions:

TEAM CONTROL DURING A THROW-IN (4-12-1, 2, 6): Several definitions were
changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the
thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul
penalties will be administered. By changing the definition of player and team control
to include a throw-in, greater consistency in penalty administration for a
common foul is achieved. Under the previous rule, because there was no team
control during a throw-in, the penalty for a common foul committed by the throw
in team after the throw-in had begun resulted in free throws if the offended team
was in the bonus, which was inconsistent with the penalty for a team-control foul
in non-throw-in situations. The rules change will result in greater consistency in
penalty enforcement and expedite the contest by eliminating the delay inherent
with administering free throws.

Hey. I've been known to be wrong before, probably more than once, or twice.

Help me to understand.

Look at 4-19-7. "a team control foul is…(including a member of the throw in team from the start of the throw in until PC is obtained inbounds)."

also, the 2014/15 poe mentions that its ONLY purpose is to deal with fouls by throw in team.

Throwin Team Control ...
 

Nice citation. So while that hot potato ball is pin balling around (how about that for a mixed metaphor) a team control foul can be charged until player control is established?

So for purposes other than a team control foul, team control ended when the throw in ended, that is, when the ball was touched by the player at the free throw line?

Two questions marks. Am I on the right track.

Yes.

You need to decide whether they *really* mean "only" in the POE, or whether "primarily" is correct -- with all the examples in the current POE certainly being examples where "no TC" is correct and maybe the play in this thread being an example where "TC" is correct.

Not really.....there are effectively two types of team control.

One starts with the throwin....lets call it partial team control. One starts when player control is established inbounds....lets call it full team control.

"Partial TC" only affects fouls. "Full TC" affects everything else. Both end the same way....when the other team gains control, when the ball becomes dead, on a try, etc....

I know I made up some terms here but that is really what is needed to clarify this whole mess. Maybe there are some better words....any ideas?

I agree that the NFHS has written that team control from the beginning of a throw-in until an inbounds player controls the ball is only for the purpose of a team control foul, but how is an official from the past five years to know that?

The NFHS is failing to correctly inform numerous new officials, coaches, and players of the rule by failing to update the rules book.

It is a problem. Same thing with the elbow rule. an official won't find anything about an "elbow in motion/movement or stationary…" in the rule or case book. That has been 3 or so years. We'll probably be saying the same thing in a few years about crossing the FT line before the Ft hits rim etc. we'll see if it makes it into the book.

All rules should be in rule book or case book. NCAA books are much better imo.

What's A Rookie Official To Do ???
 

Agree. Points of Emphasis are here today, and gone tomorrow.

The NFHS has overly depended on Points of Emphasis, instead of making permanent changes in the rulebook, and/or casebook, over the past few years.