Count the basket?
 

Had this happen tonight in a summer league game. Think I/we got it correct but can't find the rule reference.
Player A-1 shoots a three point shot that goes in. While the ball is in the air player A-2 fouls B-1 who was fighting through A-2's screen.
We counted the basket and called the foul on A-2 as a common foul. Gave the ball to Team B at the endline.
Figured that while the ball was in the air you can't have a team control foul.
Should the basket have counted?

You are correct that A2's CF was not a TCF. But I am having a hard time visualizing B1's fighting through A2's screen not being a foul on B1 instead of a foul by A2.

MTD, Sr.

That's cuz it's one of those plays (read: every play) which draws from several different rules at once. They can be rather intricate at times.

This play has a pretty easy answer: after the release of the shot there is no team control. Thus, if an offensive foul happens after the release then you penalize the foul and count the bucket if applicable. If it's a defensive foul then penalize the foul and count the bucket if the offensive player had begun the shooting motion. The shooter gets continuation during a defensive foul. Make sense?

My language didn't really describe what I saw, I think. I believe A-2 was trying to screen B-1 from behind to protect the shooter at the top of the key. I saw him push B-1 and hence the whistle. Actually it is a mechanics problem also as I was trying to keep my eyes on the shooter until he returned to the floor and the fouling action was there also but not against the shooter. I would expect that my partner could have helped there but he didn't so there was confusion by both teams as to who the foul was on A-2 or B-1.

A foul while the ball is in flight on a try/tap never causes the ball to become dead, with the exception of a player-control foul committed by an airborne shooter.

If the shot was already released, I'm wondering why B1 would still be trying to get to A1. :confused:

As BNR alludes to, the question that matters here is whether the shot had been released by the time A2 committed the foul. Pay no attention to the timing of the whistle.

In NCAAW, the "time of the whistle" is "the time of the foul", by definition /interpretation.

So, A1 begins the motion, A2 illegally contacts B2, A1 releases the ball, whistle blows -- count the basket, enforce A2's foul.

I believe the throw in would be at the spot nearest the foul. This could be the endline (and the thrower could run), but it isn't always.

Of course it's the off-season and I could be a bit rusty on my rules--someone will correct me I'm sure if this is wrong.

7.5.7 E

if the ball goes in/basket counts (and B is not in the bonus) their ensuing throw in is from the end line and they can run. even if the foul by the team A teammate is at the top of key. thx

That is not correct. The proper procedure is to inbound the ball at the spot of the foul. In this case it could be the endline but it doesn't have to be. The inbounds location for ANY common foul IS spot closest to the foul.

IF the ensuing throw in is on the endline then the team has permission to run the endline due to the exception granted on fouls/violations by the defending team on endline throw ins after a made basket.

i just remembered the case play and it says if teammate fouls after ball in flight and it goes in, throw in is on end line and team can run. it doesnt say the closest spot to teammates foul is end line. i dont like to assume facts in the plays that arent given but i dont feel to strongly about it either way.

Straight From The Horse's Mouth ...
 

7.5.7 SITUATION E: While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3
fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus) near the bottom block area. The three-point field goal attempt is successful. RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

interesting, my 7.5.7E does not say "near bottom block area." mine doesnt mention a location.

my Ipad version. i will check the paper back...if i can find them....

Don't overthink this. The inbounds for ANY common foul is nearest where the foul occured. It could be in a double foul situation where the POI is a ball in flight then on a made basket the inbounds would be endline where the team can run.

This case is there for the purposes of demonstrating that a player still gets to run the endline after a made basket even if a occurred while the ball was in flight IF the spot happens to be on the endline. It is not there to specifiy the location of the throwin.

Actually for a DPF with a try in flight the location of the POI throw-in would be from where the shooter released the try for goal as BALL location determines the throw-in spot on a DPF, while PLAYER location is the determining factor for a single personal foul.

when we have a try in flight we have no team control. if the ball goes in it goes to other team for end line throw in as deecee mentioned. that is the obvious poi. if it is missed we go to the arrow as no obvious poi. throw in at ball location at time of double foul which would be where shooter let it go as you mentioned.thx

You're....welcome?

it's a habit. just as not using my shift key is a habit.....thx:)

No problem. :D

Peace

That is correct in terms of the ultimate outcome. I would only quibble a bit with the precision of your thinking process which got you there.

Namely under NFHS rules POI is NOT any particular point in the game. Some people think of it that way, but that is not correct and can get you into administrative trouble. POI is actually an administrative process for resuming the game with a throw-in based upon the certain circumstances under which play was halted. See the definition in Rule 4. As you certainly know, it does not apply for situations in which only a single foul is committed. Also you have noted rule 4-36-2a will not be used when there is a DPF while a try is in flight as there is no team control. Therefore, the made FG situation will come under 4-36-2b (Team B due an end line throw-in) and the missed FG try activates 4-36-2c (AP throw-in at ball location).

This is really a nice scenario to test an official's understanding of team control, ball location, player location, proper throw-in location, live/dead ball, and the POI process.

To be clear, I don't agree with BigCat's usage of "that is the obvious poi" and "no obvious poi." I don't believe that how obvious the situation is really has anything to do with the POI process from a rules perspective.

As this pertains to 4-36-2, I can provide examples which are obvious which fall under all three parts: a, b, and c.

For part a:
1. A1 is holding the ball near the division line when the lights go out in the gym. (seems obvious)
2. A1 has the ball batted away by B1 and both players are chasing after it in the backcourt when a double technical foul is called on A3 and B3. (Not obvious to most)

For part b:
3. A1 has the ball in the corner of the frontcourt and requests a time-out which the official grants. While heading to their benches A4 and B4 taunt each other and a DTF is charged. (seems obvious)

4. With 7 seconds remaining in the 2nd quarter A1 is administered a throw-in from a spot along his backcourt end line. To conserve time, A1 rolls the ball on the floor up the court. When the ball has just crossed the division line B2 and A2 commit a DPF while attempting to reach the ball, but before any player has touched it. (not obvious)

For part c:
5. The official tosses the ball into the air to begin an extra period of play and a toddler runs out onto the court causing an Umpire to blow to his whistle. (seems obvious)

6. A1 and B1 contest the opening jump ball and knock it near the sideline where A2 and B2 scramble for it with neither gaining control and they simultaneously knock it out of bounds. At this time the scorer alerts the Referee that each team has a player on the court with an incorrect number. (not obvious to most)

History Marches On ...
 

Sorry. My PDF casebook is from 2011-12. If anyone is aware of any newer versions online, let me know, it would be greatly appreciated.

I only used "no obvious poi" because that is the phrase used in the case book when there is an unsuccessful try involved. When it goes in I flipped it noting that that is the "obvious poi." Just using case book language. not personally saying something obvious/easy etc.

If you get time, run through the rules/case plays analysis that gets you to the point to say that the reason they are running the end line in 7.5.7E is because there was a made basket AND the spot of the foul happen to be on the end line. thx

The case play specifies the spot of the foul was the lower block. Which would mean the inbounds would be on the endline. You have to look at your chart for where the foul occurs and the relation to where we inbounds the ball. The simplest diagram is start at a point at the top of the three point arc and draw a straight line to each of the 2 intersecting points of the three point line to the endline.

Any foul under the line inbounds is on the endline. Above = sideline.

7.5.7E used to say the foul was near the block. It does not now. It simply says A3 commits a foul on B3. nothing more.

As far as where you take the ball inbounds..it is the inside area of the key and then a point from the "elbow" (where lane lines and FT line meet) to the dead corner. looks like a spaceship. anywhere within that area goes end line.

In which version, 2015-16?

I think this pretty much covers it...


The foul in question did happen before the throwin ended. It also effectively happened "after" the shot. The spot, if it happens to be on the endline, then allows the thrower to move.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

Close, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades ...

Better, but it's not a spaceship, it's a rocket ship ...

Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7137/7...40b397d7_m.jpg

In my paper back 2014/15 case book and electronic 2014/15.

The 2014-15 Case Book still had the phrase "near the bottom block"

7.5.7 SITUATION E:

While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus) near the bottom block area. The three-point field-goal attempt is successful.

RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to run the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

This is what my 2014/15 say
7.5.7 SITUATION E: While A1's three-point field-goal attempt is in flight, A3 fouls B1 (B is not in the bonus). The three-point field-goal attempt is successful. RULING: Score the three-point goal for A1. Team B will be permitted to move along the end line on the ensuing throw-in. (6-7-7 Exception 2)

The "near the bottom block" phrase is not present….:confused:

Is your e-version from the NFHS Central Hub on Arbiter?

No, I went to NFHS site and it sent me to iTunes. I now have my paper version sent to me from Illinois in front of me. It is identical to my e version.

Below is how i'm reading the language of 7-5-7
Under 7-5-7, see above, The PRIVILEGE to run the end line is obtained after the goal is made. 7b then says you RETAIN (get to keep what you already have) that privilege if the scoring team COMMITS (future tense) a violation or COMMITS a foul and the ensuing throw in would have been on end line. You could read that and conclude they are talking about violations and fouls that occur after the goal has been made. The case plays on 7b involve violations and fouls which occurred after the goal was scored. 7.5.7B & C

In our case the foul did occur before the throw in ended and after the shot, as you pointed out, but not AFTER the GOAL. one could argue 7b doesn't come into play. At the time of the foul there was no privilege to run the end line and nothing to retain at that time. The ball remains live on the foul and goes in. Team B gets to run the end line because a live ball went through the basket--a goal regardless of where the foul occurred. Art 7.

My 7.7.5E case play simply says A3 fouls B1 while a try was in flight and then went in. Team B gets to run the end line. That is consistent with 7-5-7 language.

Over the years when this has happened to me the foul has always been inside the space/rocket ship--end line throw in, so this may be more of an academic exercise. What is more of a concern is that it appears as if my case book and BNRs are different. thx

I just want to make sure I'm clear about what is being debated here.

If Team A commits a foul while a Team A try is in flight and the try is successful and Team B is not in the bonus, the throw-in is:

1) a designated spot throw-in determined by the spot of the foul.

2) always a non-designated spot throw-in along the endline.

3) determined by the spot of the foul. If throw-in is from the endline, Team B may run the endline.

Yes, that is the question. I dont feel the language of 7b fits this situation. Based on the language 2) above appears correct to me. I wondered if there were any old interps etc. that would fit the situation better.

Yes, and I don't think anyone is suggesting #1 is an option. I think the two choices really are 2 & 3.

There is some ambiguity in the rule but history suggests #3 is the correct interpretation.

I think it really comes down to the idea that when a try is in flight time is not truly ordered. Some things that occur before the try ends are dealt with as if they occur after the try ends (but with the ball still considered live). The game doesn't stop at the infraction, the penalty is delayed until the ball becomes dead.


The language of the rule, and the explanations given when this rule was actually added, indicated that it was unfair for a team to lose the endline privileges because the other team committed an infraction. But, at the same time, the explanations indicated that a throw-in position farther up court was considered to not be unfair but more advantageous. If time is an issue, a location the ball part way down the court instead of on the backcourt endline would be more advantageous (with the possible exception of it being deep in a corner, but I'm going to judge that it was on the endline side of the diagonal in those cases ;). In fact, that is why NBA teams call timeout to advance the ball in the later parts of games....it is an advantage to move it down the court without the clock running.

Yeah, if time is a factor id certainly want it up the floor on the side. This is more of a test question type thing because is just doesnt happen enough to really matter. If time isnt an issue it really isnt that big of a deal to be on end line or side line. If you cant get the ball inbounds your going to lose...;)

I could see nfhs saying keep it simple-if the last thing that occurs is a made basket then end line throw in. I guess what id like to know is how many books show 7.5.7E with the "near the block" language? my 2014/15 stuff does not say that. BNR said his does. different language in what are supposed to be same book is a problem..