Delayed Dead Ball play
 

I had this happen two days ago, and fortunately, it played itself out, but I'm wondering a what if:

R1 on 2nd, R2 on first, with two outs. Batter hits a ball a foot inside the bag fair down third base line. R1 cruising into 3rd is contacted by F5 who is just getting to his feet after a futile attempt to stop the ball going down the line. The bump causes R1 to miss third base, but he safely scores as the throw from the outfield is mishandled by the catcher allowing R2 to also score. The batter ends up on second. I am U2, and had called the obstruction but I let the play continue to conclusion.

There was no argument or appeal, so the play stood.

However, what would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base? Would I have awarded R1 home? Then held R2 at third and the batter at second? Or does the obstruction negate the missed bag totally?

Since the OBS *caused* the missed base, rule the runner safe on any appeal. The OBS did not affect any other runners, so leave them where they ended up.

Always listen to Bob.

You can't punish a runner for missing a base because the defense made him miss it.

Now, if you have, say F3 obstructing the batter-runner near first base and the BR subsequently misses 2nd or 3rd base, then you could have BR called out on proper appeal.

MTD, Jr., and I beg to differ with the rulings in [COLOR="red"]red[/COLOR] per NFHS Rules.

Obstruction does not absolve a Runner from touching all of the Bases.


NFHS R8-S2-A1: An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third, and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

NFHS R8-S2-A2: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored.

NFHS R8-S2-A5: If a runner who misses any base (including home plate) or leaves a base too early, desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base and, therefore, is subject to being declared out upon proper and successful appeal.

NFHS R8-S3-A2: When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base, the umpire shall award the obstructed runner a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred. The umpire shall award the obstructed runner and each other runner(s) any additional bases that would nullify the obstruction.


[W]hat would have been the correct call if the defense had appealed the missed base?

The correct call is: R1 is out on appeal, R2 scores, and the Batter is on 2B. Yes, F5's obstruction hindered R1's running of the bases, but, by rule, R1 is still required to touch all of the bases per NFHS R8-S2-A1.

MTD, Sr., and MTD, Jr.


P.S. CORRECTED RULING: R1 is out on appeal for missing 3B; R2's run does not score because R1's baserunning infraction is the third out of the inning; and B5's at bat is a fielder's choice (if you are scoring at home, :p).

When you call R1 (R2 for other codes) out do you then have to decide what base you have protected him to. You did call the obstruction. Might you then have to award him award him 3B after you call him out? Bob's way is better and is referenced at least in OBR.

I used the notation in the OP which is the NFHS notation for base runners. If someone wants to give a ruling using MLB/OBR or NCAA Rules he or she is welcome to do so. That said I am referencing NFHS Rules because the vast majority of umpires on this forum umpire the vast majority of their games under NFHS Rules.

F5's obstruction hindered (the word used in the NFHS definitions) R1's running of the bases, but R1 is, by rule, still required to touch all of the bases in order included awarded bases. If R1, after being obstructed by F5, had returned to 3B and was not able to advance any further, the Umpire who recognized F5's obstruction and R1 and R2 bases, which in the OP would have been HP for R1 and 3B and HP for R2.

MTD, Sr.

What is the OBR reference, please?

Might be others but this is what I remember:

Wendelstedt Umpire Manuel:

"If a runner misses a base, or never reaches a base, as a result of the obstruction of a fielder, the umpire may consider the base as touched or reached if he believes it would have taken place had the obstruction not occurred. "

Would you not at least award R1(really R2) 3B as at a minimum a one base award at time of obstruction?
Side note. Can the moderator impose a rule to use every other codes runner designation other than FED?

I would challenge that assertion.

Here in the great State of Ohio and that state up North, H.S. baseball is played under NFHS Rules. Furthermore, the amount of summer baseball seems to decline every Summer and for Mark, Jr., and I Summer means well over 90% of the diamond games we will umpire will be fast pitch softball and that can be said for many H.S. umpires who umpire both sports. The number of H.S. baseball umpires that umpire American Leagion baseball is very small in our area of Ohio and I from my friends around Ohio it is the same where they live. I know of only one state H.S. athletic association that uses MBL/OBR and that is Massachusetts.

MTD, Sr.

The plural of anecdotes is not data. The majority of amateur ball in the US is played under OBR-based rules.

While H.S. baseball may not account for the majority of amatuer baseball played in the youth age level, I would bet dollars to donuts that for the vast majority of H.S. baseball umpires, the vast majority of the games that they umpire use NFHS rules. That said, this discussion about who umpires what under what rules set is not germane to the discussion at hand.

The author of the OP did not state what rules set under which the game was being played. My son and I answered per NFHS Baseball Rules. MLB/OBR rulings do not apply to NFHS Rules even if the rule in both rules sets are identical. As a rules interpreter in basketball (having officiated NFHS, NCAA, FIBA, and NAGWS rules sets, and familiar with NBA/WNBA Rules) I would not categorically apply one rules set ruling to another sets ruling; I may reference it only as background.

I have yet to see an actualy MLB/OBR rules citation with regard to the OP, nor have I seen and NCAA rules citation. I would be very happy to see rules citations from both NCAA and MLB/OBR so as to compare them with NFHS.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,

Do you think that calling the out "nullifies" the obstruction of the runner?

He has scored, ball is dead, under NFHS rules is he even allowed to come and retouch his awarded bases?


DA

According to Childress in his BRD, NCAA and OBR both have official interps. Childress recommends FED umpires treat as in NCAA. NCAA uses umpire judgment that the obstruction occurred near enough the base that it could not be conveniently touched.

How, then, would you propose the umpire "nullify the effects of the obstruction" in this case, in an NFHS game?

DA:

NFHS R8-S2-A3: Any runner who misses a base while advancing may not return to touch it after a following runner has scored. NOTE: Any runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is later called out shall be considered as having advanced one base.

The answer to your question is no.

MTD, Sr.



UmpJim:

Excusing the two times that I had to correct a former NFHS Basketball Rules Editor when the said Editor gave a patently incorrect interpretation as an Official Interpretation, any interpretation that I give is not official (even though 99.999,999,...% of my basketball interpretations were and are correct, :p) until the Rules Editor agrees in writing. That said, while Carl's interpretations may be correct, until the NFHS makes a ruling on such a play, Carl's interpretations can only be applied with the knowledge that the NFHS may say otherwise.

There is no play in the current NFHS Baseball Casebook that covers the situation being discussed in the OP. The search engine in the NFHS's publication is great for this sort of thing.

MTD, Sr.



MD Longhorn:

I am not sure why I included NFHS R8-S3-A2 in my OP, other than to remind everyone that umpires can protect an obstructed runner for more that one base under NFHS Rules.

MTD, Sr.

So there is no guidance in the FED supplemental interps. There is guidance in the other codes. The other code's rules could be used to call the runner out but we have interps that allow you to judge otherwise. Because FED hasn't addressed it you choose to rule other than how the other codes rule? Edited to add: Or perhaps you are rationalizing your original post because you were not aware of the NCAA and OBR interps?

UmpJim:

First, the thread's OP did not state under which rules set the game was being playe. I based my opinion on my stated assumption that the game was being played under NFHS Baseball Rules. That said, I am not ratioalizing my opinion in my OP dependent upon whether I was or was not aware of the NCAA or MLB/OBR interpretations.

It does not matter what the other rules codes say about the matter. For expample if a play happened in a basketball game being played under NFHS Baketball Rules, and there was no applicable Rules or NFHS Casebook Plays [or even NCAA Approved Rulings or Casebook Plays, assuming the NCAA Basketball Rules were the same (those who have read my posts on the Basketball Forum will understand the historical context from which why I might look to the NCAA Basketball Rules)], but the NBA/WNBA Rules Book does cover such a play, I am still prohibited from using the NBA/WNBA Rules to make a decision.

Therefore, while Childress and Wendelsteidt's books are informative, they do not have "the force of law" for a game played using NFHS Baseball Rules.

Obviously, the thread's OP is a play that should be submitted to the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee for its opinion.

MTD, Sr.

And what do you think that opinion would be?

They do in my games, Mark. They do in many other umpires' games, too.

It seems to me that the NFHS baseball rules are arbitrarily different for almost no reason from higher codes. Furthermore, they are often deficient and lacking in depth and interpretation.

In football and basketball, this is not the case (at least to this extent). There are clear rules differences between NCAA and Fed in both football and basketball, and most can be explained. I don't agree with all the explanations (for example, Fed football wants to minimize exceptions so their penalty enforcement is much simpler than NCAA). In baseball, the fed rules (and fed mechanics) simply appear to be sub-par for no reason.

Therefore, most umpires at the high school level use CCA 2-man mechanics and rely on supplemental rules explanations from MLB, NCAA, etc.

Corrected Ruling.
 

My original ruling in my OP was slightly correct because there were two outs at the start of the play. I went back to my OP and edited it, by adding a P.S. with the correct ruling.

Corrected Ruling.: R1 is out on appeal for missing 3B; R2's run does not score because R1's baserunning infraction is the third out of the inning; and B5's at bat is a fielder's choice (if you are scoring at home, :p).

MTD, Sr.


P.S.: NFHS R8-S2-A6k and R9-S1-A1, Exception c or d (my preference is c but d applies equally).

UmpJim:

I don't know because I have not yet finished composing the email to the OhioHSAA Director of Officiating--Baseball who will know doubt make a preliminary ruling and forward it on to the NFHS Baseball Rules Editor in Indianapolis for an final ruling.

MTD, Sr.



Rich:

Here in the great State of Ohio, OhioHSAA baseball umpires follow NFHS Baseball Rules. An umpire who intentionally fails to follow NFHS Rules and Intepretations by applying rules interpretations from other codes will soon find himself not umpiring, and losing tournament assignments.

MTD, Sr.



jpgc99:

As I said to Rich above, failure to follow NFHS Baseball Rules, Interpretations, and Mechanics can definitely lose an umpire games and tournament assignments. The umpires in almost all first and second round tournament games are evaluated, and the umpires in all Sweet 16 Games and beyond are evaluated. Applying NCAA or OBR rules, interpretations, or mechanics in an OhioHSAA baseball games especially in tournament play will get you in trouble.

MTD, Sr.

The last time somebody asked FED for an interp based on a contentious issue in a forum regarding projected subs it was reported that no interp was required.
What if they tell you that no interp is required because everyone umpiring baseball knows that a missed base caused by obstruction should not be ruled a missed base?

That's not what you said. You're moving the goalposts.

If there is no interpretation, then this is the only way to go. Otherwise you'd have every man for himself and MSU as things went along. No one is losing games of any importance in Ohio or anywhere else by using OBR to fill gaps where FED has not done their job.

I'd tell a coach that the obstruction caused the missed base and we'd go back to playing ball and EVERYONE would forget about the call.

The rules and case book have holes you can drive a truck through. It's one reason I carry the BRD to every game I work. Not that I'd pull it out on the field, but I've found myself looking stuff up before and after games many times over the years.

Exactly. As I said above, baseball FED rules have many, many gaps. It is impossible to use only that material to umpire a game. Most umpires have no choice but to supplement their rules knowledge with materials from other sources. Ohio might not like it, but this is the reality.

When I encounter a FED situation that does not seem to be covered by rule or case book, but I know is covered by MLB interpretation, I apply the MLB interpretation, as I would in this case. There are many rules that are not be interpreted literally, but with the intent the rule exists.

Just so everyone is on same page, the situation in question was under Fed rules.

Al

Here's my plan. Anytime a fair ball is hit I'm going to lie down over my base, making it impossible to touch it. The runners will either have to stop before the base knowing they will be called out for not touching and thus then be tagged out, or they can go past the base and be called out on appeal for failure to touch. In either case I can beat the obstruction rule because the runner still has to touch - but can't.

Or am I getting this wrong? I guess it depends on who I ask. :)

Runners must touch the bases. End of story. Umpires will then award the base the runner would have reached had you not layed on the base/blocked the base/bumped the runner away from the base/whatever.

Runners must touch the bases. Else they are in jeopardy of being called out on appeal.

They have to trust that the umpire will make them whole with the base award.

Eject the fielder laying on the base for USC, after the play is over.

Nope.

FYI:

This scenario is addressed in #41 of the Rule Myths page of the umpire bible.com. The web site relies upon OBR for its conclusion.

NFHS 2016 Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 19: R1 is attempting to score from third base and is obstructed by the catcher who tags him on the play. After the play is over, the home plate umpire declares “Time” and awards the runner home. R1 does not touch home plate. The next batter enters the batter’s box and the plate umpire announces “Play.” The pitcher next requests “Time” and appeals the runner not touching home plate. RULING: This is a legal appeal. The runner will be declared out and the run will no longer count. All bases must be touched, even on an award. A dead-ball appeal may be made before the next legal or illegal pitch. (8-2-1, 8-2-5 Penalty).

Source NFHS web site

That myth has the award due to obstruction or overthrow. The missed base was not due to obstruction. FED has recently ruled different than NCAA/OBR in the 2016 interps and a video on NFHS Arbiter website. The BRD is now wrong in recommending we rule in FED as we do in NCAA/OBR but it is still correct that in those codes the umpire can consider the base touched if it was due to the obstruction.

The interpretation does NOT say that. It is silent on whether a base needs to be touched when the cause of the miss is obstruction. It has a missed base AFTER obstruction.

I would agree with you on the interp. But the interp and this quote from a Baserunning video on the Arbiter NFHS website make me reluctantly decide that FED does call it different than NCAA/OBR.
"The batter hit a ball off the pitcher's leg and it is deflected into left field. The lead runner is attempting to score, but is obstructed by the third baseman. As a result of the obstruction, the runner misses third base. This is a delayed dead ball and the play proceeds. If the umpire feels that the runner would have scored, he will score the run. However, the obstruction does not allow a runner to miss a base.
In this scenario, the runner will be called out if the defense appeals he missed third base."

The scenario addressed is an actual HS game video where the runner missed 3B due to obstruction and actually scored so no call was needed in that game.