3rd Strike Caught on the Bounce
HS game, no outs, no runners
Pitcher throws a ball in the dirt that bounces in front of the plate and is caught by the catcher, the batter has swung. the umpire hollers strike 3 with his fist in the air. Coach instructs catcher to throw the ball around . Batter ruled safe at first. What should the proper sequence have been? Confusion caused by third strike call then fist in the air. Thanks Easygoer |
A pitch that bounces cannot be a caught strike (well, unless the pitch is then foul tipped)
|
Quote:
|
Bob is correct that it is not a caught strike however, it is a strike and in this case strike three. The confusion may have been the fact that the umpire indicated an out on the play (closed fist) but, there was also confusion by the player and coach not knowing the rules about a third strike not caught by a catcher.
|
Players are responsible for knowing the situation.
|
Umpire should signal strike, and then signal and say "no catch" to signify to all that it is not a caught third strike.
|
Some umpires signal each strike with a fist. I don't like that. We point and verbalize or simply verbalize the strike. With a ball in the dirt offered at by the batter we verbalize clearly "strike three" but don't ring him up like we would on a caught third strike. In the absence of the emphatic call, both the catcher and the hitter know something remains unsettled and there is still action to be taken
|
why did the umpire give a verbal on a swinging strike?
|
Verbalize called strikes and 3rd strikes not caught. We call it strike three because that's what it is. Instead of stating what it isn't, we say what it is. It's also not a home run, but we don't say "not a homer." There are a lot of things it isn't but only one thing it is....strike three.
|
Some umpires signal each strike with a fist. I don't like that. We point and verbalize or simply verbalize the strike. With a ball in the dirt offered at by the batter we verbalize clearly "strike three" but don't ring him up like we would on a called third strike. In the absence of the emphatic call, both the catcher and the hitter know something remains unsettled and there is still action to be taken.
|
The hammer is what is taught at umpire schools. If it's good enough for them it should be good enough for the rest of us. (no offense to the pointers out there)
Players and coaches are responsible for knowing the situation. |
I certainly don't disagree in principle. One thing to consider is that the fist is widely understood as the signal for an out by most youngsters and everyone in the stands.Using it for strikes can become confusing for the hitter especially on a questionable dropped third strike. If there is a mechanic that requires a supporting mechanic or declaration we really need to examine it. For the most part, when players know the situation, the mechanic is less relevant. In youth sports, often the pitcher and hitter are unsure of the counts even though we tell them every other pitch or when there are 2 strike counts or 3 ball counts. Neither way is without potential for confusion. Do what works best most often in your area and try to get everyone on your board on the same page.
|
Quote:
Unless it's obvious (e.g., the ball is at the backstop), give whatever your normal strike signal and call is (no "call" on a swing, I would hope), and then say "no catch" or "the ball's in the dirt" and give the safe signal. If it's close but was caught, you can say "that's a catch" to (help) avoid further play. |
I just re-read the OP. My call would be a verbal "strike three, no catch" with a safe signal. I would not bring up the hammer at all until after the out. (and i use the hammer for strikes)
|
Quote:
|
I hammer called strikes 1/2 and point for swinging strikes 1/2. I do whatever I'm in the mood for called strike 3. For a swinging strike 3, if it's caught, I let the batter leave and I casually record the out with the hammer. For a dropped strike 3, I just throw my right arm out to the side and say strike 3 loud enough for the batter and catcher to hear it. Haven't gotten any complaints for the many years I've used this combo.
|
Quote:
In the case of an uncaught third strike, the hammer-guy is OK as long as he immediately follows it up with the safe signal and says, "no catch". This seems to be the MLB mechanic that I've seen and it seems to work perfectly fine. This all evolved as a result of the Doug Eddings incident in the 2005 ALCS. RealClearSports - Top 10 Blown Calls in Baseball History - Doug Eddings, Uncaught Third Strike, 2005 ALCS Game 2 |
Quote:
Sure, oftentimes it's obvious that the ball was not caught. But, other times, the ball may short hop into the catcher's glove. Let's face it - the plate umpire has a horrible view of this - and often cannot see it at all. The plate umpire may be wrong that the ball short hopped into the catcher's glove. The catcher thinks he caught it ... he hears you say "Strike three" ... and he has no awareness that the batter is not out. I think it's important to say "no catch", especially in those situations where it's not obvious that the ball was not caught. This gives the catcher the opportunity to tag the batter quickly and render moot whether you were right or wrong about the catch. Most teams do not have a problem with the plate umpire ruling a third strike as uncaught, thinking it short hopped into the catcher's glove, when the catcher actually caught it - as long as the umpire makes this known to them immediately. |
Here's my question, as the base umpire, if you have definitive knowledge that a third strike was uncaught, do you give your partner help right away? I've been told yes by some and no by some. I know this situation may depend on the umpire, but is there a mechanic that the base umpire should use?
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Whenever I work the plate, another thing I brief my partner is that if he thinks the pitch hit the batter to go ahead and call it immediately - even if I do not call it; because, quite frankly, for those pitches in the dirt near the batter's feet, it's difficult to see whether the ball clipped the runner on the leg or may have hit his pants. The catcher often blocks the PU's view of this. If my partner sees the pitch hit the batter I want him to *immediately* call it in much the same way as he would call a foul ball off the batter's foot. I have had no complaints about this as most everybody accepts that the BU has a pretty good view of this - especially when he is in the "B" or "C" position. |
I am happy to provide input if asked, but there's no way I call a HBP from the bases. Ever.
|
Quote:
There is a trend in umpiring and that is increased emphasis on "getting it right" and less emphasis on "That's not my call." |
I'm happy to get it right...the right way. This isn't the right way.
Why don't you call check swing strikes without being asked as the BU? |
Quote:
As the BU, do you call foul balls that hit off the foot of the batter without being asked even though the PU is standing 5-feet from the event? I really do not see the big difference. Like I said, it's a briefing item. If you and I were working together you could simply say, "I'm not making that call - you'll have to ask me." I'd be fine with that. Of course, I wouldn't ask you unless one team started grumbling about my no-call. "Blue! That ball hit him!" ... and then what? I must come to you? I should come to you? I should stick with my no-call? All we are really adding is the element of grumbling prior to "getting it right". |
Quote:
Yes. You are the only person I've ever heard in 28 years of umpiring HS and college baseball that would even consider calling a HBP from the bases. |
Quote:
David keeps pointing to "getting it right"... I'm sorry - an umpire from 90-150 feet away does not replace the judgement of an umpire 5-10 feet away without the latter umpire's admission (to self) that he was blocked out on something and that latter umpire requesting input from the former. IOW, if two people see the same play and both people think they saw everything they need to - but they differ on outcome, I'm trusting the guy 5-10 feet away over the guy 90-150 feet away. Our mechanics are drawn up that way in general for a reason. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Huh?
ETN wrote:
"Don't number your strikes or your balls. Simply call the pitch. " I am confused as to why you think you're an authority. I am watching Chad Fairchild work the Stick at TB/NYY and he identifies, by number, every called second strike. Then I noticed who made this post. Tee |
Maybe Jeff Nelson should start numbering his.
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45pm. |