contradicting or not
 

Rule 2 -5-art 1 –b
A fair ball is a batted ball which: b, contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base

Rule 2-16-art 1 a
A foul ball is a batted ball: a which settles on foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base..
This brings up a situation that could happen especially with the new turf fields.

Batter hits a ball with back spin which first hits beyond this imaginary line between first and third, spins back and settles in foul territory. By rule you could call it both ways or am I missing something here.

Fair ball. Not contradicting.

It became fair when it hit fair and met the requirement. You can't un-fair it after that.

What if a fly ball to the outfield hits fair and then rolls into foul ground. Is that now foul? Of course not. Same here.

Completely different scenario,

Ball could hit at 90fett 1 inch right by either bag, spin backwards and go foul in front of bag. is why I am asking.

Not exactly the same, but not completely different, either.

The key to both calls is where the ball FIRST lands.

I understand that. But a broad statement. ball could hit fair/foul before the imaginary line and then go the other way. so in reality your statement is not quite true.

Just something I have thought about after seeing some weird stuff on turf fields. The odds in most cases is the defense will make a play on the ball before it has a chance to go foul. Considering how far the ball has to go to cross this imaginary line. They would not want to run the risk of the runner beating the play.

One thing I like about turf fields is the extra outs you get from players over sliding the base.

Once it first lands fair or foul beyond 1st or 3rd, that is the status of the ball. Yes, it is that simple.

The status of a fair/foul ball before 1st or 3rd base depends on where the ball settles if it does not pass 1st or 3rd base. It's nothing until it settles or is touched. Turf doesn't change the definitions of those things.

I do agree with you in the fact that as base umpire, you must be aware of the oversliding of bases and to make sure you're properly using your eyes before making your safe/out decision.

Thanks for the info

You're welcome.

Thinking about this some more, how does a plate umpire tell if the ball is close to this imaginary line and then does spin back.

It could land let say a point half way between 1st and the mound or third and the mound and then spin back. Be past the imaginary line. The plate ump would have a tough time seeing this. Could the base ump help with this and how would he do it.

Judgment. Basically if the ball lands behind the pitcher's rubber.

Yes, BU can help. But, once the uncaught ball is called "foul" it's foul, even if the umpire was "wrong."

On your OP, a batted ball is initially neither fair nor foul. Once it becomes one or the other, then the status is set and can't be changed.

Now that makes sense

If it first hits fair beyond the demarcation point it is fair - period. It IS the same in both cases because it met the fair criteria.

The definition of an imaginary line is a line that is "existing only in one's imagination". Synonyms: unreal, nonexistent, fictional, fictitious, pretend, make-believe, mythical, mythological, fabulous, fanciful, storybook, fantastic.

Which leads to the insanity of this rule in the first place. Fair and foul balls at least have a clear definition on the field (most fields) by a pre-defined chalk or painted line. But, having the ability to judge the position of a batted ball, relative to a line that is imaginary. That in itself is not only quite a feat but, I myself, can't even imagine it.

I can certainly understand your questions however, sometimes some rules just don't make ANY sense at all. This happens to be one of them. It would be interesting to know the history of this.

I'll call that ball fair when FED requires the line to be painted. But in another forum someone pointed out that this was actually an early OBR definition. I hope this doesn't happen to you.

You have a similar issue in OBR with an "imaginary" line if the ball hits beyond the 1b-2b line and then spins foul.

It all comes down to the defintion of "beyond". Is it a line between the bases, an arc between the bases, or the square defined by the bases as corners?

For now, FED has chosen (a), while OBR has chosen (c).

I have talked with one of our state interpreters and he agrees it looks like contradicting definitions. He is going to look into getting some clarification from the NFHS. I don't believe we would have any discussion of this until turf fields came into existence. I have seen some goofy stuff on the turf fields.

If you look at this imaginary line, it is approx. 70 feet or so from home plate. You could have a ball hit close to this line, or even slightly over it. spin foul. Tough call either way.

Personally, I think you're putting way too much thought into this. There are much, much bigger fish to fry on a baseball diamond.

If it happens, make a call (fair or foul) and stick with it.

How can anyone think it is not fair?

ART. 1 . . . A fair ball is a batted ball which:
d. first falls on fair ground on or beyond first or third base; or

It did that. It's fair. Please cite a rule tahe says you can "un-fair" a batted ball once fair.

That is the difference. You are citing d, which is in every code of baseball. I am citing b which is Fed specific. That is the reason I ask. What could happen in every code of baseball is a foul ball except Fed, which is why I look at the definitions being contradicting. Just my opinion.

Like others have said, once judged fair, it cannot change to foul.


This is ruling on a batted ball that has not yet been ruled fair, like in the first quote, above.

It may be possible to call it both ways, but not legally. The instant a batted ball touches anything or anybody on or over “the imaginary line,” it is legally a fair ball regardless of where it rolls.

They're not contradictory, they're just different.

Fair ball in FED, Foul everywhere else.

I also want to know when it happens.

Regardless of my opinion of this rule, you are absolutely correct

Stop applying non-FED rulings to a FED game and you'll be fine.

What about an imaginary 90' arc with its center at the point of home plate? Has anyone considered that? Hmmm?

See post #18

For the sake of consistency, just call it foul. Nobody's gonna argue.

Has anybody ever seen this? Ever? The closest thing I've ever seen to this is a batted ball hitting the pitching rubber and bouncing back foul. I've never seen nor heard of a ball on it's own doing anything close to what the OP outlined. And here we've spent two pages on it. Let's get the season going, for goodness sake!

JJ

You're probably right.

I agree. Got 6 in already and 3 scheduled this week. There are some things good about the southern states.