We are at odds in my association over these questions. If possible, I would really like to hear of a KNOWN authorative opinion, from an actual authority. Please consider:

Are there any DEAD ball balks? Pitcher stands on or astride the rubber, but the ball is not live, is anybody calling this a balk?

Tougher question: During an at bat, batter gets TIME to adjust gloves. During this break, pitcher, on the mound, goes to his mouth. Call the BALL? Or say "don't do that". Does 8.02a1 apply during a dead ball?

Weirder question. As para 1. Pitcher is on rubber, and PU does NOT realize pitcher does not have ball. He has been scanning stands for MILFS, he comes back to earth and points and says PLAY! At this time a fielder who has the ball tags a runner off a base.

Q1. Can umpire legally put ball in play if pitcher does not have ball? (Or is this another, oh crud, and don't do that?). Do you still call a balk? Put please reconcile with the dead ball issue.

Here's how I would rule these examples: OBR

1) Nothing can ever happen if the ball is not LIVE. No balks, pickoffs, pitches, steals, etc... Umpires state "ball was dead," ignore any action, start over.

2) Ditto

3) The umpire inadvertently called PLAY. When he realizes it (pitcher doesn't have the ball), he has to nullify the tag play and start over with F1 on the rubber WITH the ball, and call PLAY again. His mistake.

4) Pitcher must be on the rubber with the ball for the umpire to call PLAY and make ball LIVE. See #1.

nineO1c

I support your reply to BJ. It seems to me that when the ball is dead, there is nothing on the diamond that can OFFICIALLY occur. If F1 is standing on the rubber licking his hands and spitting on the ball, why---why in the world would an upire put the ball in play. I would think it strange if F1 was doing a hand stand off one end of the rubber, but I would not point the ball live.

Mr. Moose, do you not concur? Oh, and does 8.01a1 apply when the ball is dead? Forget about it!! And your Q1.-- OBR 5.11 seems to cover that question.

Agreed, this is very arguable stuff, but an umpire can not control his game if he can't shut it down COMPLETELY at those appropriate times.

Brother Moose..............
I don't know why you are at odds.
I agree with the other responses.
What do you think the meaning of "dead" means in "dead ball?"
I know you are wise enough to make the correct decision on these.
Let those others call it in their games and see what happens......


Freix

I agree with the other responses as well. "Dead Ball" or "Time" and any type of killing the play language that use in your games means exactly what you say.

In all levels of baseball, when time has been called or the ball is dead, play has stopped nothing else can happen until the umpire puts the ball back in play.

I strongly to all umpires to not try calling a balk when the ball is dead. Early in my umpiring career, I thought the same thing the original poster did, and I made balk before when the ball was dead.

I thought the gates of H*** were going to open up and swallow me right there on the spot when I saw the pitcher's coach get upset with me about the call I made.

Not being a smarty pants about this topic because we are all here to learn and get better as officials. In closing, nothing can happen when time has been granted or the ball has been delcared dead by an umpire.

Bfair,

If somebody calls a dead ball balk.....it won't be a pretty situation will it?

I suspect BJ has the correct response and his association is wrong.

Re: "We are at odds in my association over these questions."

Any other associations in your area? If not, ever think of starting one? Change is good they say.....

<b>"We are at odds in my association over these questions. "</b>

Tough decision here. Do I believe the above statement or the chosen "emoticon" :D

Knowing your association somewhat, or at least several fine examples within it, it's hard to believe that this is a serious or lengthy topic of discussion. And the message from the emoticon seems to convey the impression that you have the answer you need.

Now then, Mr. Sandlin writes:

<b>"If somebody calls a dead ball balk.....it won't be a pretty situation will it? "</b>

I agree, however there was a thread on this very board about a year ago in which a very small minority advocated that very thing. Even that thread wasn't pretty.

A couple points of order please.

"Within my association" simply means a few umpires having a discussion... In no way am I implying or saying that "My Association" has a position contrary to the correct one. Far from it.. I believe I am part of one of the strongest umpire associations in the country, they even let in low level JV umpires like me.

So far, everyone, including me, at least here, agrees on all points.

The biggest bone of contention with SOME people I talk to (high level, experienced, top quality umpires). is that "trick play" scenario.

To refresh: R1.. after a pick off attempt, time granted, F3 fakes the return. Pitcher gets on the rubber AS IF he had the ball, and PU NOT REALIZING THE DEKE, says PLAY! Tag on runner by F3..

In my opinion... PU say, Oh crap. NO BALK! NO OUT! and Defense gets a stern talking to. Do over!

Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve. Thoughts?

<b>"Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve."</b>

I don't find that in Rule 8.00 or Rule 5.00. Hate to sound like a rule book umpire but occasionally one does have to resort to the book.

Perhaps they are using the logic of " It's a balk 'cause you're stupid enough to try that".

"Within my association" simply means a few umpires having a discussion... In no way am I implying or saying that "My Association" has a position contrary to the correct one. Far from it..

Well, that seems to be a far cry from this: "We are at odds in my association over these questions"

Which is it, time to squat or run-n- fetch.....

Re: "Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve. Thoughts?"

So if these respected umpires are going to call a balk when the ball is dead (as in your case - R1.. after a pick off attempt, time granted, F3 fakes the return. Pitcher gets on the rubber AS IF he had the ball, and PU NOT REALIZING THE DEKE, says PLAY! Tag on runner by F3.. );so, are they also going to call the out in this situation?????

They might be excellent umpires, but I would not respect their position in this case. And I wouldn't want to be on the field with them. Not much point in arguing this one anymore, although I think it is very black and white.

Somethings wrong here
 

<b>"high level, experienced, top quality umpires".</b>


<b>Some respected umpires insist to me that even though the call of PLAY may be technically incorrect, the ball IS in play and the BALK must be called due to the OBVIOUS illegal act and intent to decieve</b>

These two statements do not seem to coincide.

I can't imagine any "quality" official calling anything during a dead ball.

Thanks
David

Garth, thanks for the compliment. Actually, the two main oponents are D1 and CC level umpires. Maybe they should be "johnsoned"! ;)

Re: Somethings wrong here
 

Lots of stuff is called during dead ball. A ball for going to the mouth for example. Base awards for example. Just not balks and certainly not this one.

<B>"Maybe they should be "johnsoned"! "</b>

Or in some cases, "out-ed" might be appropriate. :D

Re: Re: Somethings wrong here
 

I might agree that "some" things might be called, but base awards are not a call. Its as you stated an award.

As I stated before, the quality official isn't making a lot of calls during a dead ball.

He does a lot of preventive umpiring though and that's what makes him the quality official that he is.

Thanks
David

Eating Crow
 

the "quality umpire" leading the charge that this is a balk and not a do-over wrote a well-known former MLB umpire, who might teach umpiring during the winter as well, and this was his response:

I'M WRONG!
I Just received an E-mail from none other than *** *****. How about that guy? Replying to my E-mail at 11:00 at night.

Anyway here's what he said: "The umpire erred in putting the ball in play without meeting all the conditions. Those conditions exceed those enumerated in 5.11. The pitcher must have the ball in his possession; he must engage the rubber, fielders must all be in fair territory; the catcher must be behind the plate and the batter must be "reasonably set" in the batter's box. Then and only then can the umpire legally put the ball in play
It is not a balk when the pitcher goes onto the rubber without the ball when time is out.
The 13 actions defined as balks in 8.05 (a-m) all apply to live ball situations. In the stated case, the ball was legally dead and no runners can be put out with a dead ball (5.02).
Picking crow feathers from my teeth,
Gary

So there we have it. And we are all pretty much unanimous.