Deer In The Headlights Look

[SAZBA]

I was umpiring a high school (NFHS) varsity game. I was behind the plate.

Runners at 1st and 2nd. Two outs. Batter hits one over the left field fence for a home run. His team comes out from the 3rd base dugout and gathers around home plate giving high fives and what not. I am in front of home plate to make sure the plate gets touched.

As the runner, who was on second, trots on toward home, he peels off about 3 feet short of the plate and begins giving high fives to his teammate as they wait for the other two runners. As soon as he did this, I look up and one of his teammates who was standing there looked up. We both look at each other. Just then the runner who was on 1st now crosses home plate. For you seasoned vets, this is probably easy for you. I was like a deer in the headlights. I look over at third base to see the home run kid rounding third with a big smile getting cheers from everyone. For the life of me I didn't know what to do. Never ever seen this before.

The catcher was there but didn't see it and neither did the other team.

My first reaction was to call the 1st runner out - thus the 3rd out of the inning. Then it crossed my mind - is this an appeal deal? As I'm trying to run through the rules in my head, time has passed and the only one who knew what happened was me and one of his teammates.

No harm no foul? Do I just point to the 1st runner and yell "you're out - end of inning?" I don't yell "time" because the ball is already in the parking lot. What do I signal? How do I signal? Do I signal anything? Is it up to the defense to appeal?

I did nothing. Three run homer. The game moved on.

I guess I got confused on the runner passing the other versus a defense appeal - combined with the fact that the ball is dead and that I had no clue what to say or how to say it.

Okay, tear me a new one here.

[bob jenkins]

I'd call it a missed base and not passing (nor abandonment). Wait for the appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

This one's not as easy as you might think.

Passing requires that the entirety of the succeeding runner to be past the entirety of the lead runner. You said he peeled off 3 feet short. The stride (front to back) of a running person can easily be more than 3 feet. When R2 touched home, was every single bit of his body beyond every single bit of R1's body? Are you SURE?

If not ... all you have is what Bob said - a missed base that requires an appeal.

Now ... say he peels off 10 feet short, you've got to call it. Yes, you're going to get yelled at ... but that kid will never do it again (and likely no kid on that team will ever do it again).

[rbmartin]

Rule 8 Section 4 Art 2
(m) Any runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner before such runner is out (including awarded bases);...

If, as MD Longhorn stated, the trailing runner did not entirely pass the preceding runner that's one thing but if the trailing runner actually touches home while the lead runner has peeled off and is high fiving his teammates (before he has reached home plate), in my opinion you have no choice but to call the trailing runner out. What you do with the lead runner would be subject to appeal I guess.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Rule 8 Section 4 Art 2
(m) Any runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner before such runner is out (including awarded bases);...

If, as MD Longhorn stated, the trailing runner did not entirely pass the preceding runner that's one thing but if the trailing runner actually touches home while the lead runner has peeled off and is high fiving his teammates (before he has reached home plate), in my opinion you have no choice but to call the trailing runner out. What you do with the lead runner would be subject to appeal I guess.

There really is nothing more to do with the lead runner. He never touched home, so once the third out is recorded when the trail runner passes him, the inning is over and the rest of the runners are null and void.

Now, if the trail runner's out is the first or second out, then the lead runner better realize he needs to continue and touch home before the batter-runner passes him as well.

[MD Longhorn]

Convoluted as it may seem (and we've had this conversation here before), it is possible for a runner to not pass, yet score ahead of the preceding runner - and not break any rules. Logic says the runs must score in order, but the rulebook doesn't. If R1 is standing right by the plate, R2 touches, then R1 touches, you don't have any grounds for removing a run or calling an out.

[CT1]

Call R1 out and end the inning. Yes, you're gonna have a big argument, but the offense screwed up by wanting to be too quick to celebrate.

You have a chance to do some preventive officiating in these situations by telling the offense "Stay back & let 'em touch." This will be a subtle reminder to the runners to touch home before starting the high-fives.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Convoluted as it may seem (and we've had this conversation here before), it is possible for a runner to not pass, yet score ahead of the preceding runner - and not break any rules. Logic says the runs must score in order, but the rulebook doesn't. If R1 is standing right by the plate, R2 touches, then R1 touches, you don't have any grounds for removing a run or calling an out.

I remember that discussion. But if this were to happen in my game, I'm not going to visually measure the distance between R1 and home plate, and then extrapolate that since R2 probably touched home while his trailing edge was still superimposed on R1's leading edge, R2 still did not meet the strictest definition of "passing". Why cut R1 some slack when it's clear he gave up his baserunning responsibilities?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I remember that discussion. But if this were to happen in my game, I'm not going to visually measure the distance between R1 and home plate, and then extrapolate that since R2 probably touched home while his trailing edge was still superimposed on R1's leading edge, R2 still did not meet the strictest definition of "passing". Why cut R1 some slack when it's clear he gave up his baserunning responsibilities?

You're not cutting anyone anything. Passing is a call you do not make unless you're POSITIVE R2 passed R1. The benefit of the doubt goes the opposite direction that you're giving it. You're not measuring, extrapolating, superimposing to try to excuse a possible pass... you're only calling him out for passing if you are absolutely sure that he did so.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You're not cutting anyone anything. Passing is a call you do not make unless you're POSITIVE R2 passed R1. The benefit of the doubt goes the opposite direction that you're giving it. You're not measuring, extrapolating, superimposing to try to excuse a possible pass... you're only calling him out for passing if you are absolutely sure that he did so.

And in order to be absolutely sure, you will have to measure, extrapolate and superimpose.

Sorry, but I cannot for the life of me justify not making that call if R1 stops short of the plate to high-five trail runners, no matter how close he remains to the plate, and the trail runners go on by.

You're right, it's not in the rule book. But I just find it hard to believe that the rule makers would not consider a runner who touches home after a previous runner stops short of it as a form of passing.

Using your argument, R2 could be completely in front of R1, with the exception of his pinky finger of his trailing hand being intertwined with R1's pinky finger of his leading hand, and not have passed him. Even though R2's torso is almost six feet ahead of R1's torso, you would say R2 isn't out yet.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Using your argument, R2 could be completely in front of R1, with the exception of his pinky finger of his trailing hand being intertwined with R1's pinky finger of his leading hand, and not have passed him. Even though R2's torso is almost six feet ahead of R1's torso, you would say R2 isn't out yet.

I'm not making an argument. I'm explaining the rule.

And given that not that long ago was a caseplay where BR was rounding first and R1 was holding to see if it was caught - and as BR was about to pass, R1 grabbed BR's hand and spun BR in front of, past him, and back behind him - and the ruling was not out... I guess to your pinkie intertwined TWP - that guy's not out either.

Plus the play where R2 from first and R1 from second are coming home with R1 on R2's heels - R2 slides between R1's legs and touches home just before R1 - also not passing and both runs count...

As to extrapolating, blah blah blah. If you are not in position to clearly see daylight between the two runners, then they did not pass. If you have to guess, they did not pass. And the moment you say torso in the argument, you've lost the protest.