More Courtesy Runner Issues
 

This happened in an NFHS game tonight and I wanted to see if it was properly applied:

#23 pinch hit for #4 who was the catcher. #23 singles and the offensive coach puts in a courtesy runner. The defensive coach says that this cannot happen because #23 is a pinch hitter and not the catcher. Is he correct?

Later in the game the BU tells the coach that if the DH is batting for the pitcher or catcher a courtesy runner can be used for the DH. Is he correct?

As #23 has not played defense, do not allow a CR.

As the DH is not the pitcher or the catcher, do not allow a CR.:D

I agree with Charlie on these.

Note that in the first play, #4 (F2 the previous half-inning) could be re-entered, and then a CR could be used.

Rule Book
 

I agree on both points but habe not been able to find how to prove it in the rule book. Can anyone hell there?

Substitute S1 bats for F1. Does S1 have to complete pitching an at bat during the next 1/2 inning. Of course not. Projected substitues are not allowed. players who substitute while a team is on offense do not have a defensive position till the team takes the field on defense. At that time S1 or another player becomes F1.

1) 3.1.1M

2) Rule CR1 specifically saysF1 or F2 -- not DH

That's allowed in FED baseball? It's not allowed in FED softball. In FED softball, the pitcher or catcher from the previous half-inning has to be the player who bats and gets on base in order for a CR to be legal.

Yes.

Please site rule. AS my books are not available.:D

In baseball, I think it's 2005 interp, situation 2. That's from memory, but it's come up so often ....

You can search on this forum for it.

Yep, good memory!
SITUATION 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team A’s catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home team’s coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner. (Speed-Up Rules)

Courtesy runners are for the pitcher and catcher, not John who is the pitcher or Jim who is the catcher. Therefore when Bob come in to PR he is neither a pitcher nor a catcher so he cannot be CR for. The CR is a positional substitution. If a player comes in on offense as a substitute for the pitcher or catcher they are only a pinch hitter and/or pinch runner and have not yet become the pitcher or catcher. That is exactly how it should be explained.

That is exactly how I explained it
 

That is exactly how I explained it but the umpires told me I was wrong and the substitute was now the catcher. This is a problem I have had in the past. I can show the umpires exactly what the rule book says but the "interpret" it to mean what they want it to mean. They even told me they contacted their interpreter and that he confirmed that they were correct. I have no way of knowing that they did or did not contact him but what am I to do if he says something in black and white in the rule book is wrong?

Protest, if you can.

That being said, until someone showed me that interpretation, I had the same opinion, because I was keeping the intent of the rule in mind.

I disagree.

Case play 3.1.1 Sit M does not cover this situation. and the interp presented is different than the situation presented in thread No. 1. All sit 2 said was the way the coach utilized the sub and catcher was legal. It does not say that the starting catcher has to come back in the game in order for there to be CR.

Having said that, where in the rule book or Case book does it say a (Pinch hitter)/ Substitute does not become a catcher or pitcher when substituting for that player on offense.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.

Contact the interpreter / assigner yourself.

Raise it to the state.

Accept that it's the interpretation in your area and use it yourself.

If he is a sustitute on offense he is a PH, not a catcher till he actually catches. You can't project a sub otherwise you could say that Bob on second is going to be my catcher in the next half inning and then CR from him. If they go on defense and then Bob isn't a catcher you now have a problem.

Just give a rule reference and not your opinion, and this whole thing is solved.

Show me the definition of a Pinch Hitter.

REFERENCE PLEASE such as:

NFHS 2-36-1 "A substitute is a player that is eligible to replace another player already in the line-up." or

3-1-1.d "a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and :.........d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box"

It's 3.1.1N. My bad on the typo.

It includes ".. a courtesy runner would only be allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat"

You've given yourself the rules reference, but failed to quote the important part of that rule. 3-1-1 states that there shall be no projected substitutions, then says a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced. You can't project to me that PR Able is going to be a catcher in the next half inning just the same that you can't tell me that Jones is going to re-enter on defense. A runner is defined as a player of the team at bat who has finished his time at bat and has not yet been put out and includes the batter-runner and any runner who occupiers a base. A runner is just a runner, he is not a catcher. That is not an opinion, it is a definition.

Thanks Bob, I was able to research this over the weekend and found that both the NFHS Rules and Case book do a bad job of clearly defining a "projected substitution".

A simple sentence like:

"Offensive changes must be reported when the team is on offense and defensive changes must be reported when a team is on defense." would help.

Thanks for the clarification.

If these definitions were as clear as you say they are, then why does this topic come up in the first place. If it wasn't for other reference material I would still be searching for a more concise definition of this in NFHS Rule and Case Play books.

Thanks .

I guess it just seemed clear to me. Just like it's clear to me that the player that is a catcher when on D will come back to bat if they bat around. The player is a courtesy runner, not a courtesy substitute. No matter what the NFHS says.

Crap on a cracker, people... I expect this from the various Facebook umpire groups that are one third troll, one third newbie with no training at all, and one third guys like us that know better but nevertheless try to educate the rest.

But on this site, 95% of us are Umpires. Good ones. Umpires that should not have trouble on a remedial question like this one. I'm embarrassed for the collective "us" on this thread. It's one thing if the younger or newer members of the profession (or those newer to this group) have a question on something like this one... but I KNOW several of those posting here are better umpires than they are making themselves appear.

Far too much lawyerizing and wordsmithing lately - the rulebook is not written in the same way a law book is. If it was, none of us could read it anyway.

The thread said a "pinch runner" was used. That is a clear substituion in accordance with the rules, not a CR.

Listen, I have been doing this long enough to know that I don't know everything and neither does many others. I do know how to read and understand what the rule and case books say and how to use other reference material to further understand those rules and case plays.

Just because one has the talent to put words on paper, does not mean that it is clear to others because, if that was the case BRD's Interpretations, umpire camps, and hundreds of other manuals and books would'nt make a dime.

I am man enough to say I learned something here and.....I am STILL, A DAM GOOD UMPIRE!!!

Correction, "Pinch Hitter" not "pinch runner"

I will allow a catcher to bat twice in the same inning and be CR for both times with an eligible CR. I will not allow a CR for the catcher on base to be replaced by the catcher while CR is still on base. I believe that is the intent of the casebook CR3 situation.

No offense meant, I apologize if it came across that way.

Not taken that way at all.

I take the rules very seriously and as already stated, the one thing I know for sure is that I don't know everything about them. That is why at 64, I still enjoy every inning, every game.

Have a good season.

If a coach makes multiple defensive changes while his team is on defense, he indicates their batting order at the same time... But can a coach make defensive changes while his team is batting?

Projected changes are not allowed.:D

In other words, No!

I now agree, defensive changes must be made when a team is on defense and offensive changes must be made when a team is on offense. Which is NOT, how "Projected Changes" is defined in the NFHS Rule book. (Well it is just not defined). But a "Substitute" is defined as an eligible player being used for another.

So in fact when a Coach told me the #3 was batting for his catcher #5, and #5 would be returning to catch, I would always say, tell me that when your on defense and the catcher returns. Never realizing that #3 is not considered the new catcher when at bat, because he was a substitute in accordance with the rule definition. Which is only referenced in Case Play 3.1.1N.