Must be a new season
 

Coach here with two situations during a game this weekend:

1. 2nd baseman for the opposing team was using a 1st baseman's glove. I've reviewed OBR a bit and didn't see anything specific to the situation other than articulating the dimensions of the glove fielders must use (and I didn't have those dimensions, or a tape measure, handy during the game). Can't find my Fed rulebook and a quick search of USSSA revealed nothing clear. Is there any rule set in which this is legal?
2. HP umpire was giving my catchers advice on how to do their job. We're dealing with 12U rec here but my first reaction was to have them thank them for the advise but that they were getting coaching and needed to concentrate. That's asking a bit much for 12U perhaps so I'm thinking instructing them to give a standard answer of "Thanks" or "Yes sir" would work much better (then do it the way they've been instructed). Any advice on how to instruct kids to deal with (what I'm hoping is) a well-intentioned umpire?

Thanks in advance.

1. Legal in FED... I assume it would be legal in OBR and USSSA as well, but I don't study those rulesets.

2. What type of advice was the umpire giving? If it's of the "back up a little bit so you don't interfere with the swing" or "don't stand up before you catch the ball, I can't see if it's a strike or not" variety... that's good advice for an umpire to give, especially for younger kids. If you do decide to talk to the umpire about it.. be nice.

1) is legal in FED but illegal in OBR. In OBR only the catcher and first baseman can use a mitt. Others must use a glove. Read rules 1.12 through 1.15 for the glove/mitt rules. Look at the receiving side of the glove/mitt. If you see individual finger (other than the thumb) pockets it's a glove. If you don't it's a mitt. Just like gloves vs. mittens.

2) Thank the umpire for trying to help but ask him to please give any suggestions directly to you and you'll work on them with the player.

Thanks for the responses so far. The glove/mitt vs. glove/mitten explanation's a good one!

If the feedback were just positioning I wouldn't have an issue with it (I instruct catchers to position themselves, and receive pitches, in the best way possible to aid umpires so I'm on board with anything that assists with this). The advice given was more "you need to do this to block" and "you should be doing this with your hands." Sounded more like coaching than officiating. Both catchers used that day relayed the same things being said to them.

You should have an issue with it. Position in shaving level ball is dependent on the pitch and situation. The catcher goes where he needs to be. The umpire has to adjust if he wishes.

Agreed, but this was 12U Rec, so some "positioning" can be appropriate.

Yuck. Umpire has no business saying either - even if asked! UIC should be informed.

Sorry, should've been more specific. I'm very clear with catchers I teach on how/why to set up, how to receive, and to be aware that they're not doing any of that for their health but to help their pitchers throw strikes. If, during the course of a game, and umpire's giving them feedback on how they're positioning themselves, particularly if they say they're getting blocked by what the catcher's doing, I want the catchers to know that so they can adjust (or at least so we can discuss it in between innings and see if there's anything to be done).

We could get into what's acceptable, and not, for a HP to request in terms of positioning (and part of my original question leans that way) but I always want my players to have a firm enough understanding of the basics that also allows them to adapt to specific game situations. Do we ever achieve that? Sometimes, but I still think adjusting and being adaptable are valuable skills to learn.

Usually, the problem with these catchers is they set up so far back, they cost their pitchers strikes at the bottom of the zone. Sometimes you can solve this by moving up and standing in his (previous) spot as he is throwing the ball back to the pitcher.

Not me. I'm not forcing the catcher to stop doing something he's legally entitled to do. If his positioning is costing his pitcher strikes, that's on him, and his coach needs to make the adjustment.

I'm not forcing him to do anything. He can set up anywhere he wants in his box. And I'll be glad to move if he wants me to.

I'm with Dash on this. I'm there to get strikes and outs. If F2 is setting up too far back, I will do what Dash said. If F2 says something to me about me crowding him, I will move back.

You are asking for advice on how to coach the kids to respond to umpire's coaching. I would tell them to look attentive when the umpire is speaking to them, but say nothing. When half inning is over come to you and tell you what was said. You can then have a discussion with the umpire if you desire, based on what was said.

I don't see how a deep setup would cause the umpire to lose sight of a pitch that could (should) be called a strike if it was indeed a strike - if he is properly positioned to see pitches. The catcher actually has 8' to work with but rarely is more than a foot or two deeper than the batter. Call it where it crossed the plate, not where it hits the catcher's mitt. Any umpire that just calls those pitches Balls is really doing a disservice to the pitcher/catcher.

...sometimes you just gotta umpire.

http://www.sportsknowhow.com/basebal...imensions.html

It has nothing to do with losing sight of the pitch.

If the pitch nicks the bottom of the zone, and the catcher mashes it into the dirt because he is set up too far back to properly receive the pitch, I'm balling it.

FACT

And any umpire that officiates any type of decent baseball and calls balls and strikes strickly by where it crosses the plate, is not officiating decent baseball for very long.....!

I believe the MLB tracking systems (the official ones, not the TV network ones) measure the area over the plate and rate the umpires accordingly.

Except that the pitch that hits the bottom of the zone and then hits the dirt (not sure the exact criteria for this) is properly called a "ball" even in the tracking system

Well, if it's "decent baseball", then you aren't going to be dealing with catchers that set up that deep in the box in the first place. And it's easier to sell a Ball call on a pitch that hits the dirt after nicking the lower part of the zone in "decent baseball" because it will likely be a nasty breaker.

Really? ...and any umpire that decides to just make up his own rules about the strike zone (i.e. "one off on the inside, two off on the outside") is not officiating decent baseball for very long...FACT!

But that begs the question as to what is considered "decent" baseball, I guess.:confused:

What ever works for you!!!!!:)

Mitt question has been answered.

At 12U there's a high probability of a catcher too far back, and a high probability of strikes hitting the dirt because of it. (At the higher levels, there's more velocity/flatter pitches, so fewer in the dirt even if F2 is back). Fundamentally I rarely call a pitch in the dirt a strike. At younger ages in instructional league ball, I'm telling the catcher to move up and often his coach. Tournaments and older ages I'm staying quiet unless asked, and the too deep catcher will cost his pitcher some strikes.

Too far back? Again I reference the size of the catcher's box (agreed, often not even marked on most fields) so how far is TOO FAR for you?...you even acknowledge that a strike can hit the dirt but yet you still say you won't call it a strike, why not? You want to send a message the the HC but by not calling it you are really giving the batter a huge advantage....that is not right at any level.

I dunno...I may not have much experience in this strike-calling thing, but if I call a pitch in the dirt a strike, I'm probably not going to be working much anymore.

just a side note, the MLB tracking system (ZE system) judges the ball from the time it crosses the plate, so initially that pitch that catches the bottom of the zone but hits the dirt is ruled as a missed pitch for the PU... obviously they don't want that called a strike so the supervisors go in each morning and when they check the performance of the umpires they reverse that decision and recalculate the PU's accuracy score so it is scored as a ball

edit: the balls and strikes system they use is the ZE system, the system they use for calls in the field is the SURE system

:eek::eek:I find that hard to believe that in THE PROS they actually cheat and call pitches that touch the strike zone balls. Where is that allowed in the rulebook.:rolleyes::rolleyes::)

"Too far" is far enough that a potential strike in the bottom of the zone can hit the dirt before the mitt. Why won't I call it a strike? If I am fully convinced it was a strike, I'll call it. But I can't remember ever hearing it from a DC for not calling a pitch in the dirt a strike. It's a near certainty to hear from the OC if you call it a strike. And while I don't let potential coach "feedback" influence my calls, I tend to look at that the result as decent calibration/validation.

As for "giving the batter a huge advantage?" Hardly. The very bottom of the zone, and any decent coach will see it and correct his catcher. When I coached Legion ball, if I felt we weren't getting the bottom of the zone, I blamed the catcher far more often than the ump.

I was doing a HS Varsity game and the only negative feedback I heard was on a 12/6 curve ball that the F2 didn't get his mitt under and the pitch hit the dirt. The pitch was a strike all the way but the 1B coach said it hit the dirt.