base tricking?

mom and assistant coach · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 10:58am

I have a question about Little leauge baseball for 10-13 yea olds. We have a championship game tonight and I have been told about a "ball holding" tactic that we might be able to use. A runner is on a base and the baseman has the ball, time out is called and the ball is walked back to the mound.But the ball is not given to the pitcher, but is kept in the glove of the baseman and brought back to the base. When the runner leads off early, before the pitch, the baseman tags the base and or runner, making it an out. Can this be done? Is it in the rules? I hope to get an answer soon, because this is our last game and I want to make sure incase it is used. Thank you

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by mom and assistant coach
I have a question about Little leauge baseball for 10-13 yea olds. We have a championship game tonight and I have been told about a "ball holding" tactic that we might be able to use. A runner is on a base and the baseman has the ball, time out is called and the ball is walked back to the mound.But the ball is not given to the pitcher, but is kept in the glove of the baseman and brought back to the base. When the runner leads off early, before the pitch, the baseman tags the base and or runner, making it an out. Can this be done? Is it in the rules? I hope to get an answer soon, because this is our last game and I want to make sure incase it is used. Thank you

Little League Baseball does not have that age bracket.
Under which rules do you play? (What is written on the front cover of your rule book?)

Rich Ives · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 11:07am

Can't be done.

Once time is called, the ball cannot be put back in play until the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball. The rule reference is 5.11

If the ball is not in play, a runner may not be put out by the defense. Rule reference is 5.02

mom and assistant coach · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 11:19am

It is just a little town leauge the makes up it's rules and uses some from the rules book. The kids have to be no older then 13 but Aug 1. I don't think we are an actulal little leauge sanctioned team. But the coach we are playing likes to throw rules from the book at us and no one else has the book except maybe the umps. It was his assistat from last year that told me about this move and I was thinking about using it on him before he could us. But if it can't be done, I wanted to get it printed out before the game was I had something to get him with if needed. I asked another friend who is in the Ohio leauge and was told it could be done, SO there is no way?

ref5678 · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 11:38am

If time is called the ball is dead pitchers gotta step on to the rubber with the ball. Even if you wouldnt call time this would be a balk. Pitcher cant be on the rubber (all codes)without the ball. This is comonly refered to as the hidden ball trck

GarthB · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 11:42am

Of course there is a way and it happens quite often, unfotunately. How? You get an umpire who knows the rules about as well as the idiot former assistant who told you about the play.

That is the one hazaard of playing by the rules, it goes unappreciated and misuderstood when the official doesn't know them.

But, according to the rules, if time is called the ball cannot be put back in play unless the pitcher possesses it and is in contact with the rubber. Thus, in the scenario you present, there is no out because the ball was dead.

However...if time is NOT called, and the pitcher does not take the rubber without the ball and the runner is dumb enough to lead off seeing all this, then BANG, he's out when tagged off the base.

ozzy6900 · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 12:12pm

Okay Mom, Here it is in OBR 5.11 which should be the same as the Little League Rule book:

5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in possession and the Plate umpire calls "Play". The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession.

So you see Mom, if the play that you described is allowed, it is illegal. The rule is the same under FED (high School) and NCAA rules.

In my 25 years of umpiring high school & college, I've seen the hidden ball trick countless number of times but only twice have I seen it properly executed.

soonerfan · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 12:19pm

if the ball is kept live and time is not called, that tactic is a balk.

the pitcher cannot be in the mound without the ball and feint that he/she has posession of it. quit watching those Walt Disney baseabll movies.

mom and assistant coach · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 12:43pm

Thank you for all your help. I am the only woman out there helping. All I want is a fair game, but competative too. It seems that even in a small town alot of people want to make everyone "feel good" without them even trying. Even if it means cheating. I hope I can get more help from here in the future, I am willing to learn but no one sems willing to teach here. Again, Thank you

GarthB · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 07:43pm

if the ball is kept live and time is not called, that tactic is a balk.

It is not a balk if the pitcher is not on or astride the rubber. 8.05(i)

the pitcher cannot be in the mound without the ball and feint that he/she has posession of it. quit watching those Walt Disney baseabll movies.

Close...

8.05(i) (With runners on base, it is balk when)

The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate, OR while off the plate he feints a pitch.

Bfair · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 07, 2003, 09:36pm

What you will receive as an argument is that although the ball was dead, the umpire made the ball live again. Thus, the defense will argue that since the fielder tagged the runner with a live ball he should be out. The offense will argue that because the pitcher is on the mound without the ball that it is a balk.

IT IS NEITHER.

Since the pitcher must be on the rubber with the ball it is neither an out nor a balk. When the official thought he made ball live again---he never made the ball live per the rules. Because the pitcher was not on the rubber with the ball, it was not made live despite the umpire's declaring it live.

No call is needed in your situation other than to get the runner on the base, the ball in the pitcher's hands (and the pitcher on the rubber), and start 'em playing again.

Freix

bluezebra · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 08, 2003, 02:15am

"the baseman tags the base and or runner, making it an out."

The only way an out can be made by tagging the base, is on a force play, or the BR at 1B. Of course, the fielder must have the ball in his/her possession.

And, as others have written, once time is called, one of the requirements for the ball to become live again is for the pitcher to be in possession of the ball.

All those people who make up these local "rules" shpould be barred from ball fields for life. They cause nothing but trouble when they "think" they know better than professional rules makers.

Bob

bluezebra · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 09, 2003, 03:35pm

"base tricking?"

Is this another way hookers pickup the johns?

Bob

Rich Ives · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 09, 2003, 03:43pm

"The only way an out can be made by tagging the base, is on a force play, or the BR at 1B."

So I guess you have to tag the runner on an appeal?