2013 World Series Thread

[Mountaincoach]

I guess the question becomes when does doing the right thing and getting the call right become more important than age-old precedents, traditions, don't want to step on somebody else's toes, which plays are reviewable and which are not, the fear that every single close play will become a huddle among umpires, it will slow the game down if we actually talk about it or (Heaven forbid) look at an instant replay, let's not embarrass our colleague, etc. etc.?

Let's face it. Names like Welke and Joyce have become household names for the wrong reasons. That umpire last night will probably not obtain such legendary status, because the situation was corrected before it got out of hand and the sports and news media got hold of it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scrounge

But that wasn't just a whale of a miss, it was a brontosaurus.

Whales (Blue):
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 120 tons (109 tonnes)

Brontosaurus:
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 33-38 tons (30-35 tonnes)

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Whales (Blue):
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 120 tons (109 tonnes)

Brontosaurus:
Length - 70-90 feet (21-27 m) long
Weight - 33-38 tons (30-35 tonnes)

Clearly I was referring to beluga whales!

well done

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

, it will slow the game down if we actually talk about it or (Heaven forbid) look at an instant replay, let's not embarrass our colleague, etc. etc.?

IR will NOT slow the game down. IMO, it will speed up the game.

Let's take last night

First Farrell comes out and argues (3-5 minutes)

Now the umpires huddle (another 3-5 mintes)

Call reversed

Out comes Matheny (another 3-5 minutes)

If IR was used - 2 minutes tops as it was a no brainer.

Remember the skippers will get challenges just like football and they will not waste them on close plays. This was obvious

Forget about being traditional All sports now have replay and it's about time baseball joins the rank and file.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

I did not personally see it. It was mentioned on sports talk radio. I know they have been known to be wrong in the past. Perhaps there were adjacent TV screens and not the actual scoreboard that showed the replay

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Yes, they huddled, we need IR, yadda, yadda, yadda.

How about this, Get the damn call right to start with! The play was right in front of DeMuth and he simply blew the call, horribly.

I normally do not jump on the "big boys" but in this case, I really can't see why DeMuth thought that there was voluntary release. I tried to play it from every angle and I just cannot see it.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

I guess the question becomes when does doing the right thing and getting the call right become more important than age-old precedents, traditions, don't want to step on somebody else's toes, which plays are reviewable and which are not, the fear that every single close play will become a huddle among umpires, it will slow the game down if we actually talk about it or (Heaven forbid) look at an instant replay, let's not embarrass our colleague, etc. etc.?

Let's face it. Names like Welke and Joyce have become household names for the wrong reasons. That umpire last night will probably not obtain such legendary status, because the situation was corrected before it got out of hand and the sports and news media got hold of it.

And who made them household names? The press and the fans. You don't hear or read of other umpires bringing up their names and saying Joyce and Welke should go down in infamy. But you just might hear them say Demuth opened up a huge Pandora's Box.

Yeah, they are age-old traditions and precedents. But unless the union decided that those traditions must change for the 2013 World Series, why now? Why not at the start of the post-season? Or the start of the 2013 regular season?

Until real change is formally put into effect (e.g., the use of instant replay), you go with what is expected of your trade, no matter how old. If what Demuth did is considered correct by those who REALLY matter (and, to me, the press and fans don't matter here; it's the fellow umpires who matter), I would really like to know.

You ridicule how every close play will now get reviewed. Well, guess what? That is now the standard. Heaven help the umpire of this crew who doesn't give in to the whines of the manager. Heck, I'm guessing that the expectation is for umpires to come running in like their NFL and NBA counterparts to "help" their partner get the call right even before the manager steps out of the dugout.

[scrounge]

the pool reporter transcript post-game by the umpires and Torre...

ASAP Sports Transcripts - Baseball - 2013 - MLB WORLD SERIES: CARDINALS v RED SOX - October 23 - Dana DeMuth - John Hirschbeck - Joe Torre

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

YI really can't see why DeMuth thought that there was voluntary release. I tried to play it from every angle and I just cannot see it.

Originally Posted by scrounge

the pool reporter transcript post-game by the umpires and Torre...

ASAP Sports Transcripts - Baseball - 2013 - MLB WORLD SERIES: CARDINALS v RED SOX - October 23 - Dana DeMuth - John Hirschbeck - Joe Torre

In the clip of the play it is pretty clear that Demuth's head is turned, looking at the feet for the neighborhood play. The transcript of the post-game conversation seems to confirm this. Demuth had a couple things to watch, and the tip off the glove happened while he was looking elsewhere, at the worst time possible. It was really a perfect storm.

I don't think the signal to offer help is converging on the guy, he probably glanced around and saw every umpire giving him "the look".

Does anyone think that the umpires would have gathered even if Farrell missed the play and did not come out?

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And who made them household names? The press and the fans. You don't hear or read of other umpires bringing up their names and saying Joyce and Welke should go down in infamy. But you just might hear them say Demuth opened up a huge Pandora's Box.

True. I look at it as Demuth opened a door to change that should have happened decades ago.

Yeah, they are age-old traditions and precedents. But unless the union decided that those traditions must change for the 2013 World Series, why now? Why not at the start of the post-season? Or the start of the 2013 regular season?

It's just the right thing to do, no matter when it happens. Yep, it should have happened at the beginning of the season......about 30 or 40 years ago.

Until real change is formally put into effect (e.g., the use of instant replay), you go with what is expected of your trade, no matter how old. If what Demuth did is considered correct by those who REALLY matter (and, to me, the press and fans don't matter here; it's the fellow umpires who matter), I would really like to know.

The fans always matter, and unfortunately, the press has the fans' ear, so they have to matter too. NASCAR learned that lesson the hard way. They stopped listening to the fans and kept listening to the officials, 43 very spoiled-rotten drivers, sponsors, and owners. Now the grandstands are about half empty at every single track. Trust me--there's nobody in MLB who is going to stand at a microphone and say "The call stands because the umpires come first.

You ridicule how every close play will now get reviewed. Well, guess what? That is now the standard. Heaven help the umpire of this crew who doesn't give in to the whines of the manager. Heck, I'm guessing that the expectation is for umpires to come running in like their NFL and NBA counterparts to "help" their partner get the call right even before the manager steps out of the dugout.

First, I never said that every play would be reviewed. Secondly, the NFL and NBA officials ignore the vast majority of the whining from the coaches. And, thirdly, I thought a baseball officiating crew was supposed to be a team. In reality, the entire crew is apparently a bunch of independent contractors who reign with complete autonomy over their little patch of the field. Demuth asked for help. If the umpires felt more comfortable in asking for help, the game would actually get stronger.

Bottom line--MLB umpires do not work as a team as I feel they should. As a result, we see these massive meltdown arguments, fights, suspensions, fines every single year. But it's apparently too late for that to change now--instant replay is coming.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by scrounge

the pool reporter transcript post-game by the umpires and Torre...

ASAP Sports Transcripts - Baseball - 2013 - MLB WORLD SERIES: CARDINALS v RED SOX - October 23 - Dana DeMuth - John Hirschbeck - Joe Torre

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting and revealing. I love what Joe Torre pointed out-- "JOE TORRE: One thing for you to know, he didn't miss a call all year. And he still hasn't missed a call all year. "

[jicecone]

"And in that group, you're in that group?
DANA DeMUTH: Yeah.
JOHN HIRSCHBECK: We're all there. He's standing there listening.
JOE TORRE: They're a team."

And there in lies the point of which I believe many Baseball officials in the past have failed to understand.

When the team gets together and make the correct decision they All look good. Conversly when the team or individual refuses to get together, they ALL look bad. And no, this is not applicable to every single play or scenario on the field.

I have asked many coaches, "Are you upset that we got the call right or that we changed the call?"

[PeteBooth]

Ozzy I'm starting to lean more on the "dark side" and maybe umpiring schools need to change with respect to getting help.

We were "brainwashed' or whatever you want to call it when it came to asking our partner for help. Except for once in a while, it was blasphamy to request help. I'm sure "back in the day" you worked with guys that would not even look at you meaning DON'T ASK ME.

Let's take last nights game. Why should we have to wait for DeMuth to request help. Football officials gather almost all the time and discuss the situation yet in baseball you have to wait for the umpire who made the call to request help on his own, which IMO is ludicrous. Suppose DeMuth actually refused to get help and stuck with the call. There is nothing no-one could do at that point no matter how blatent of a miss.

My brother-in-law is a FED football official and they work in crews and I think it's great. Nothing is perfect but as mentioned above I am now leaning more towards the "dark side" then I used to.

Perhaps with IR umpiring schools will now teach / instruct etc. officials to work as team rather then as individuals and then of coarse the rules need to be re-written which would not be a bad thing.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

IMO, you are spot on in your assessment and I will add one more comment to that. IMO, baseball officials unlike other major sports officials are not held accountable.

Ed Hochule a well respected football official blew a call BIG time in a game played between the Broncos and the Chargers years past. It was an inadvertant whistle and at that time (before the NFL changed the rule) the ball was declared dead regardless of what actually happaned.

Replay clearly showed that the runner was not down by contact etc. and the Chargers recovered the fumble but because of the inadvertant whistle the Broncos retained possession and won the game on the next play. If memory serves Hochule did not get any post season assignments that year.

MLB umpires are there for life. I'm pretty certain there are some young very good officials in the Minor leagues waiting for their shot but most will never get that chance.

Yes as baseball officials we are "viewed" as a team but we do work as individuals. That's the way it has been taught for years. MAKE YOUR OWN CALLS. I was a proponent of that philosophy 1000 percent but perhaps (im getting older now) that philosophy needs to change.

One major problem is that for the vast majority of us we work 2 person until we get to playoffs / sectionals / state finals etc. In other words out of a total sason there are only a handful of games where you actually work 3 or 4 person.

Working 2 person, it's very difficult to work as a team because you simply do not have the coverage you need. Each umpire in a way has to stick "with their own island' so to speak because as mentioned there is only 2 of you.

In summary, for MLB I do agree, they should work more as a team and with IR coming perhaps the umpiring schools will change their philosophy, but in 2 person it is more difficult.

Pete Booth

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Ozzy I'm starting to lean more on the "dark side" and maybe umpiring schools need to change with respect to getting help.

We were "brainwashed' or whatever you want to call it when it came to asking our partner for help. Except for once in a while, it was blasphamy to request help. I'm sure "back in the day" you worked with guys that would not even look at you meaning DON'T ASK ME.

Let's take last nights game. Why should we have to wait for DeMuth to request help. Football officials gather almost all the time and discuss the situation yet in baseball you have to wait for the umpire who made the call to request help on his own, which IMO is ludicrous. Suppose DeMuth actually refused to get help and stuck with the call. There is nothing no-one could do at that point no matter how blatent of a miss.

My brother-in-law is a FED football official and they work in crews and I think it's great. Nothing is perfect but as mentioned above I am now leaning more towards the "dark side" then I used to.

Perhaps with IR umpiring schools will now teach / instruct etc. officials to work as team rather then as individuals and then of coarse the rules need to be re-written which would not be a bad thing.

Pete Booth

I hear you Pete. In our day, you put your butt on the line with each call and you better not ask the other guy to do your job. That's all changed now and it is because schools and clinics have stopped putting the onus of the call on the umpire and instead, put it on the "team". Back then, the onus was on youto get the call right or die with the call. The youngster of today don't understand this and argue with it because they were never taught this way (unless they were taught be me). They never experience being all alone out there with a bad call and no one to "help". That is what made us the officials we were because we didn't want to be hanging out to dry. Times change an sometimes not for the better.

My advice is simple; get the call right and you won't need "board meetings" and IR. You'll still have disagreements but the calls will be solid.