"Ban on plate collisions seen as likely"

[scrounge]

I'm perfectly fine eliminating this play from baseball.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I'm perfectly fine eliminating this play from baseball.

Under what pretense? To minimize injuries? Or is there some other reason why you feel it must be eliminated?

Like ozzy mentioned, these are professionals. They make millions of dollars to score more runs than their opponents. Sometimes, they need to put themselves in harms way to either score them or prevent them. It's the nature of the game.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that the real reason behind the prohibitions in amateur play is more to prevent tempers from flairing than it is to minimize injury. Oh, sure, the rules writers will say the FPSR prevents injuries, and perhaps they are right. But I'm thinking that they had seen way too many fights in high school games result from slides that took out pivot men at second base, and that's the real reason they came up with the FPSR.

In the grand scheme, how often does a professional catcher suffer a debilitating injury from a collsion at home? I'm willing to bet they have more concussion-like symptoms from balls fouled into their masks. For every Buster Posey incident, there are probably 25-50 crashes that occur in a season where the two players simply end up with dirty uniforms and a couple of bruises.

It just so happens that there were two that took place in the Red Sox/Tigers ALCS game, with one resulting in the catcher sustaining a strained ligament. If this were a game in June, I seriously doubt it would have been a blip on the radar screen, much less an article in the paper.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Under what pretense? To minimize injuries? Or is there some other reason why you feel it must be eliminated?

Like ozzy mentioned, these are professionals. They make millions of dollars to score more runs than their opponents. Sometimes, they need to put themselves in harms way to either score them or prevent them. It's the nature of the game.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that the real reason behind the prohibitions in amateur play is more to prevent tempers from flairing than it is to minimize injury. Oh, sure, the rules writers will say the FPSR prevents injuries, and perhaps they are right. But I'm thinking that they had seen way too many fights in high school games result from slides that took out pivot men at second base, and that's the real reason they came up with the FPSR.

In the grand scheme, how often does a professional catcher suffer a debilitating injury from a collsion at home? I'm willing to bet they have more concussion-like symptoms from balls fouled into their masks. For every Buster Posey incident, there are probably 25-50 crashes that occur in a season where the two players simply end up with dirty uniforms and a couple of bruises.

It just so happens that there were two that took place in the Red Sox/Tigers ALCS game, with one resulting in the catcher sustaining a strained ligament. If this were a game in June, I seriously doubt it would have been a blip on the radar screen, much less an article in the paper.

Ray Fosse--One guy put out of baseball by this type of play is one too many

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

Ray Fosse--One guy put out of baseball by this type of play is one too many

And Bryce Harper for a time.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

Ray Fosse--One guy put out of baseball by this type of play is one too many

Alright, let's be accurate here. The hit did not directly take him out of baseball right away. It happened in the 1970 All Star game, and he retired in 1979. He played 130+ games for Cleveland and Oakland in '71 thru '73. As late as 1977, he played 89 games with Cleveland and Seattle, and batted a decent .276, including .353 in the 11 games with the Mariners. And he won two World Series rings with the A's in '73 and '74.

Also, he was misdiagnosed after the collision when an X-ray of his shoulder was read as negative. It was only after another X-ray a year later showed that he did have a shoulder fracture and separation, and that the injury healed itself improperly. If they had seen the fracture and separation initially, he might've healed properly and played many more games than he did.

So to say the collision took him out of baseball is quite a stretch. Was it uncalled for? Perhaps, but only from the perspective that it happened during an All-Star game. If this was a regular- or post-season game, it wouldn't have received the same level of criticism. And I don't believe Fosse ever considered the hit, in and of itself, as dirty. He is more bitter that Rose hasn't been very sympathetic since the play. But that's just Pete being Pete.

[voiceoflg]

So should all out runs to the outfield wall be banned? If the purpose is to lessen injuries, then those should be outlawed as well.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Under what pretense? To minimize injuries? Or is there some other reason why you feel it must be eliminated?

Like ozzy mentioned, these are professionals. They make millions of dollars to score more runs than their opponents. Sometimes, they need to put themselves in harms way to either score them or prevent them. It's the nature of the game.

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that the real reason behind the prohibitions in amateur play is more to prevent tempers from flairing than it is to minimize injury. Oh, sure, the rules writers will say the FPSR prevents injuries, and perhaps they are right. But I'm thinking that they had seen way too many fights in high school games result from slides that took out pivot men at second base, and that's the real reason they came up with the FPSR.

In the grand scheme, how often does a professional catcher suffer a debilitating injury from a collsion at home? I'm willing to bet they have more concussion-like symptoms from balls fouled into their masks. For every Buster Posey incident, there are probably 25-50 crashes that occur in a season where the two players simply end up with dirty uniforms and a couple of bruises.

It just so happens that there were two that took place in the Red Sox/Tigers ALCS game, with one resulting in the catcher sustaining a strained ligament. If this were a game in June, I seriously doubt it would have been a blip on the radar screen, much less an article in the paper.

I just don't think it's needed or adds anything to the game at all. Yes, they are professionals and make millions. Not sure why that axiomatically means crashes are good. Actually I'd say that these assets are way too valuable to risk in the relatively rare plate collision. I just don't think it's a big deal if it's removed or would change the nature of the game at all. Beanballs used to be tolerated much more as part of the nature of the game but aren't today. The game will live on and we won't even miss it much.

[MD Longhorn]

Manny, you proceed from the notion that allowing collisions at home plate is a good thing and blast the opposing opinion simply because it doesn't prove the converse.

So I ask you ... what is GOOD about allowing the catcher, and only the catcher to violate the obstruction rules that every other fielder is held to, and to allow a runner to maliciously contact the catcher ... and only the catcher ... in a way that would warrant an ejection anywhere else on the field?

[ozzy6900]

Gentlemen, Let me make one, simple statement:

Keep the damn nanny state out of baseball!

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Gentlemen, Let me make one, simple statement:

Keep the damn nanny state out of baseball!

Yeah - Safety Rules are for sissies! No more padded gloves; let 'em sharpen their spikes and aim for the fielders knees (it was good enough for Ty Cobb, dammit); helmets just prevent the pitcher from really letting a batter know he's standing too close to the plate. It just ain't the real thing anymore

[DG]

Football is much more dangerous sport, on any given play, and the NFL outlaws certain types of hits. Why MLB does not do likewise on malicious hits at the plate is beyond explanation.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Yeah - Safety Rules are for sissies! No more padded gloves; let 'em sharpen their spikes and aim for the fielders knees (it was good enough for Ty Cobb, dammit); helmets just prevent the pitcher from really letting a batter know he's standing too close to the plate. It just ain't the real thing anymore

We are talking about PRO, not amateur. Amateur ball has the rules to prevent this and penalties if the rule is ignored.

edit to correct spelling of amateur..... damn fat finger!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

So I ask you ... what is GOOD about allowing the catcher, and only the catcher to violate the obstruction rules that every other fielder is held to, and to allow a runner to maliciously contact the catcher ... and only the catcher ... in a way that would warrant an ejection anywhere else on the field?

I'm not sure I understand your reference to the catcher violating the obstruction rule. If the catcher has the ball and blocks the plate, how is that obstruction?

Also, when have you ever seen an MLB umpire eject a runner who did crash another fielder? I honestly cannot recall it ever happening. Not that crashes away from home plate happen often, but should it happen, do you think a pro umpire would eject the runner?

That said, there was the case of Albert Belle decking Fernando Vina while running the bases. He didn't get ejected. And it happened after Belle was hit by a pitch, so there were extenuating circumstances that would warrant an ejection here.

I think you don't see collisions elsewhere, not because of fear of ejection, but because it would be viewed by opponents as a cheap shot that warrants retaliation.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm guessing that the real reason behind the prohibitions in amateur play is more to prevent tempers from flairing than it is to minimize injury.

100% disagree with the "temper" assertion. The game at this level it played by men who do this for a living. Nobody gets pissed at a collision at home plate. They all know that it is currently part of the game.

The F2's also get paid millions of dollars to play defense and not sit on the bench with a broken ankle from a collision. It's not just about the offense.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

100% disagree with the "temper" assertion. The game at this level it played by men who do this for a living. Nobody gets pissed at a collision at home plate. They all know that it is currently part of the game.

The F2's also get paid millions of dollars to play defense and not sit on the bench with a broken ankle from a collision. It's not just about the offense.

You misread my point. I said the "temper" issue is at the amateur level. I've seen enough high school games to know that things like the FPSR have much more to do with preventing testosterone-filled wanna-be's from punching each other's lights out than avoiding injuries.