"Selling" Safe Call on Missed Bag during DP
 

4th Inning of District Final. Visitors up 1-0. Home has R1, 1 out. (Playoffs so we are working 3-man, I am in C Modified). Batter hits perfect DP ball to F-4. Flips to F-6 who catches ball with right foot 12" short of 2B, strides over the base, lands on other foot about 18" past base and fires to 1B for what everyone thinks is inning ending DP. I see that he clearly never touched 2B, Stand Tall and signal SAFE Twice while Yelling "Safe, He's Safe". Runner ends up on 3B. Coach asks for Time and comes out to discuss (very politely I must admit). I explain that F-6 never came within a foot of the base. Best the coach can come up with is "That's a great baseball play, and in a game this important, you need to give him that out" I disagree, and eventually the game goes on. Runner is stranded and Visitors win 2-0.

Post game: I explain to Crew Chief that I'm 100% sure I got it right. He was concentrating on following ball to very close play at 1B so he had no input on my call. He said if I was sure, I should never give the out on "Neighborhood Play" Subsequent email said he spoke to several friends in attendance who all agreed that F6 missed 2B, but said in may Rating that I "should have sold it better".

My thought is that the only way I could have really SOLD it was to continue SAFING until well after the call at 1B. (Probably at least 6-8 times?). Is this what I should have done? Any other thoughts?

P.S. If I had thought of it, I'd have told the Coach that "the league paid for three umpires to ensure we got that play right .... and I did." Truth be known, had it been 2-Man where I was in C and had to follow the play to 1B, it would have been harder to see the footwork. Who knows?

"Safe! Safe! You're off the bag!"

At the same time, give a big, emphatic sweeping motion with both arms.

Good call, safe twice seems sufficient to me.

I like Lawump's idea. I would have done it this way also.


You would have done yourself a disservice had you said this. It would have been condesending and smug. Especially considering that the coach talked to you in a respectful way.

I don't view ""That's a great baseball play, and in a game this important, you need to give him that out"" as being particularly respectful.

I agree with that interpretation - basically he was asking you to "cheat" for his team, that's disrespectful.

Also, PU should be watching this play also for an possible illegal slide - don't know what's he was watching for at 1B - there is an umpire there for the call.

Thanks
David

U3 can get the illegal slide -- PU can help with pulled foot or swipe tag (even though the chances are less for this with U1 in A) or interference by BR or ...

I agree with your points there Bob that is good coverage issues for the PU, but you can be in position for that and also be watching the play at 2B was my point.

I was just responding to the OP where he said the PU said he didn't see the play etc.,

Thanks
David

I was concentrating on this; He said, "Coach asks for Time and comes out to discuss (very politely I must admit). " Even with that remark you pointed out, there is no need to "one up him" with a smart a$$ come back. It's not professional.

I agree with that part.

I'm gonna stir the pot on this one.

On such a play, where the middle infielder "catches ball with right foot 12" short of 2B, strides over the base, lands on other foot about 18" past base", I'm going to have an out. F6 hasn't gained any advantage, although his technique leaves something to be desired. And, as the OP points out, in a 2-man crew it's unlikely that U1 would even see this.

If he catches the ball *after* stepping over the base, I have no problem with the "safe" call.

CT1, Suppose a BR hits a home run and misses 2B by 12". The defense sees him miss the base and properly appeals. Are you going to call the BR safe or out? Same distance involved.

I disagree on that point. U1 (2-person) shouldn't turn until the throw is released and that's plenty of time to see that the base wasn't touched by this much.

I assume that the players are driven to the games by their mommies, right? Because if you don't call this out in games where players shave and have girlfriends, you are going to have real problems!

Ahhh, a neighborhood play supporter. Gotta love us old-school types. :D

Missing a base is never a great baseball play. The wave of the arms would have done this for you.

Whether in 1, 2, or 3 man, NEVER EVER mention anything about who paid for how many umpires. NEVER.

That's really too bad. Feel free to call it that way when you make the show. Until then, your superiors at the highest levels of both OBR and FED have clearly told us not to call the out on a neighborhood play like this one.

In a 3-man crew? The PU was exactly where he was supposed to be -- trailing the batter-runner. U3 has everything at second since he does not have to turn to make a call at first.

Those days are long over at every level I work, including NCAA baseball.

In the typical old-school "neighborhood" play, F6 glides *behind* the bag (not touching it) to avoid the sliding R1. And I agree that *that* play is what has gone by the wayside.

That's not what I envision happening here: F6 stepped directly *over* the bag, and as such was still exposed to R1.

Again, if F6 receives the throw *after* stepping over the base, I've got a "safe".

As a mechanics aside, most manuals currently have you in B Modified with R1 only, unless you have a LH batter in NCAA.

Exposure to a runner has nothing to do with anything. Both organizations have been quite clear that you need to touch a base to get a force out, even on the turn of a double play.

I have a couple of questions regarding this type of play.

1) Why do we need to allow a "neighborhood" type double play under any rulesets that have slide rules ?? The middle infielders have plenty of options to avoid incoming baserunners. I allow some leeway under OBR, if a fielder is protecting himself.


2) If this fielder missed the base by as much as claimed here, how do you sell your call to the head coach, who is probably standing in the 3rd base coaching box 100 feet away with a clear view of the play ?? Especially when you're probably 10 to 15 feet away from it. Why be there if you're not going to call something so obvious to everyone in the stadium ??

In my opinion, you handled this play correctly. I probably would have called "Safe, no bag" and signaled multiple times like you did.

We don't.

Ummm, why would you need to sell a Safe call on a runner to the third base coach? :confused:

Did you miss the part about it potentially being the HEAD COACH !!!

I think the question is ... why do we need to sell the call to a guy you just said had a very clear view of the play? And why would the 3BC need to be sold that his runner was SAFE... he's certainly not going to complain about it.

I obviously have confused some people here. I'm addressing those who think an "out" call is the correct call on these types of plays. You have to sell that "out" call to the head coach who had a clear view of the play.

Says Who

Also, don't you know by now all coaches think they have a clear view of the play.

Pete Booth

Rich,

I agree he's where he's supposed to be, but I don't agree that from that same position he can't see the slide at second base. In his comments he basically said he wasn't watching the play - that is what I have issue with.

Thanks
David

Absolutely it does. It's the reason the pros started allowing the "neighborhood play" in the first place.

It sounds like you did everything you needed to do to sell your safe call. Missing the base by the distances you've described is not the neighborhood play.

The only thing that I would add/modify is this: when justifying a call that may be contrary to what some people think is going to be the call, justify it first, then signal safe. In other words, "Off the base, safe" or "Pulled foot, safe."

Sorry Rich, I've been calling it my whole career (at every level, as you) and until I am told other wise, I will continue. I have never, never had an argument with a coach or a gig from an evaluator or assigner for calling the neighborhood play. Of course, I do not call as we did in the 70's (5 feet away), the fielder has to be able to have been close enough to have touched the bag if he were a masochist. Add to this any runner I have called out was already walking back to the bench, not giving it a 2nd thought.

If I'm the PU in a 3-man, I'm not even looking at the play at second. I'm following the BR, getting to the 45-foot line, and anticipating a reason to umpire.

With a U2/U3 there, there's NO WAY I'd EVER come in with an interference call, so why would I look?

The proper MiLB mechanic is "Safe! Safe! You're off the base!" (in that order).

If you are working in a 2-man crew, you have absolutely NO chance of doing it the way you state (unless, of course, you don't care about the play at first base.)