The other day I got clobbered in the forearm by a foul-tip which almost brought tears to my eyes (Colt level). I use the hands-on-the-knees stance with my elbows locked. I was wondering how many of you use this stance and do you wear a forearm pad for protection?? I know that the catcher is the best protection but sometimes they could double as a jockey.

I used to hold my arms the same way you did until my left forearm was almost broken by a catcher who set up outside and the pitch came down the middle. I stand with my arms at my side and I do wear a batter's forearm shield.

I use hands on knees with elbows softly locked to lock in. I maybe get hit in the arm once a year. I am not sure I would get hit less any other way, except hands behind the back, but how do you lock in that way.

Ed H

I also use hands-on-knees double-wide, and I try to face the fleshy part of my arm outward so if it does get me it doesn't get bone.

I didn't used to turn the fleshy part out, and took a sharply fouled fastball from a former relief pitcher for the Boston Red Sox right to my elbow. I left the game and had it x-rayed. It sure looked broken. But it wasn't. I got lucky.

Had to give them the co-pay, though, and that sucked.

Have you ever considered an outside chest protector? You can hide your arms behind it.

A friend of mine used the hands-on-knees stance, until he had his hand broken.

Bob

An outside chest protector? Today that's about as acceptable as wearing your hat backwards while working the plate and having your shin guards on over the outside of your pants.

I work hands-on-knees now, too (the Gerry Davis stance), and it gives me a superior, locked-in view of the plate and has helped solidify my timing and plate work. The trade-off is that you get hit in the arms every once in a while. Every once in a while when I get hit, a less-experienced partner tries to give me some sage wisdom by saying that getting hit is why they work the plate with their arms behind their back.

How many umpires at the professional (or top amateur) level work with their arms behind their back? None, because it's bad for 2 reasons -- (1) It may help keep your arms from getting hit, but I pity the umpire that takes one on the exposed elbow, and (2) Proper balance involves using the arms out in front of you. I've never seen an arms-behind-the-back umpire that looks completely balanced.

You're going to get hit. Your equipment is protecting the important parts. As far as the hand getting broken, that's a freak accident. You can get your hand broken using just about any good stance. Ever notice where scissors umpires put their hands?

Rich

Accepted and agreed for upper-level play, Rich. When I start working behind top-level or major league catchers, I will try that as well. As long as I'm working behind 16-yr-old and under catchers, I'm keeping my arms behind me. I haven't lost my balance yet and I don't feel that my strike zone has suffered because of it. If one of the networks decides to televise one of my games, I'll find some way to handle the shame and ridicule of everyone pointing and laughing at my sub-professional mechanics.

That's up to you, of course.

Every umpire has his own concept of what is important. When I see an umpire with his hands behind his back, I simply assume he is an untrained umpire that doesn't know any better. Then I wonder what else he doesn't know or do.

A lot of assignors feel the same way. Some don't. You have to know what is expected of you where you live and at the levels you work.

I work all levels, mostly HS varsity, small college, and adult baseball. Yet I would never imagine working differently even if the participants were 9-10 years old (which they were this weekend in a couple tournament games I worked). I expect to get hit, it's part of the game and part of the tradeoff for getting good, balanced positioning in the slot.

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jul 29th, 2003 at 09:01 AM]

Arms
 

I've been clobbered a bunch here lately too! Several balls into the crotch of my lower/upper arm (the part of the arm in front of the elbow) and a couple to the mid radius (the bone on the thumb side of your forearm). The fleshy ones sting but the shots to the radius are excruciating and do make you wonder if something is broken.

The last half dozen games I've done I have taken to placing one arm, the exposed one, behind my back. The other arm, one behind the catcher, I leave on my knee/thigh. The method seems to work okay. As long as the pitcher moves along and doesn't spend 5-10 seconds in the set position my thigh muscles hold a good steady stance. Although, after getting beaned in both thighs they are a little tender also.

During American Legion district tournament this weekend... One shot an inch above the top of my shin guard inside of the left thigh. Two innings later, exact same spot. First one stung. Second time required a little dancing, cringing, and sucking in of my breath. Next day, solid shot to front of mid right thigh (three days later the bruise/tenderness is about 5-6 inches in diameter). Third day of the tournament - no shots to my body but it sure was tough couching. Even today it is painful to walk up and down stairs.

Shot to right thigh was through the catcher! How do those balls sneak their way through everything to hit the umpire so solidly? Behind the catcher is supposed to be a safe zone.

Renaissance Armour might be the answer
http://www.weaponmasters.com/images/...0AM_medium.jpg

Number one being balance, like Rich mentioned, is why I switched to the "Gerry Davis" style stance. I knew at some point I would get hit and after I did I couldn't get back to my usual stance for about 3 innings so I went back to my old stance (squatting).

Can you still buy those old balloon protectors, maybe on Ebay. No thanks to that. I remember using that thing when I first started and even then I used the squat stance with my forearms/elbows on my quads......kinda like when you relieve yourself in those porta-potties and you don't wanna touch the seat.

Arm position
 

I have a mild case of a genetic bone disorder that makes me a little more susceptible to broken bones than most people. Therefore, it is important that I protect myself as much as possible. No, I don't use an outside protector. However, when I drop into my stance at the pitch, I tuck my hands behind my knees. This puts the meat part of my arm facing outward so when I do get hit, it is in the muscle. It took me a while to find this, and it works rather well. It keeps my hands and fingers out of harm's way as well.

I agree with Striker
 

Although I don't have a genetic bone disorder, I don't like getting hit needlessly, and that's exactly what some of you (Rich) are setting yourselves up for, and recommending as a good mechanic. If you think that's what you need to do to "look good, look like a pro...whatever", the by all means, knock yourself out.
I happen to work in the slot,using the box stance, where I tuck my hands behind my knees and pin my arms to my sides. In this position, very little of the arm is left exposed to a direct blow, and I'm certainly in a balanced position, in spite of your claims to the contrary.
You say if you saw someone using such a position, you'd "wonder what else they didn't know". I disagree with that viewpoint altogether. When I see a guy get whacked needlelssly, I just think to myself, how un-necessary it was. But I guess he can feel better knowing he "took it like a pro".
No thanks; I'm quite secure in my manhood and my umpiring prowess to continue doing what has worked well for me thru the years. The "pros" opinion notwithstanding.......I still manage to sleep well at night.

Rich:

I instantly know the level of any umpire around here who works with his hands behind his back. He works the lower levels of youth ball.

How do I know that? Because no one who uses that stance will ever move up in the association beyond that level.

Yes, proper mechanics and appearances <b>are</b> important. They set the initial tone for the game and as such they are an important part of game management.

We have two such umpires here and we assign them to work those games where their appearance and the perception they exude aren't issues....9-10 and 11-12 year olds.

There are ways of protecting oneself without projecting the image someone who came out of the stands to fill in.

You must a real pro, I guess.........
 

...but I still disagree, which is my right, with your opinion.
No, I don't work MLB, and yes, I work youth ball, and have done it for a long damn time. I'm a very good umpire, who also happens to project professionalism on the field, albeit for those players 18 and under. You use the term "youth ball" like there's something less important about calling at that level, than whatever level you happen to work for. Here's a newsflash for you pal; there's a lot more of us, than there are of you. Just because I happen to give my time to the youth of my community, who that game means more to than anyone, doesn't mean I'm any less of a pro at what I do, than you.
Not once have I heard anyone with any common sense, say, "Man, that guy behind the plate sucks because he doesn't have his hands hanging out in front of him like an ape".
If that's one of the keys that you use to judge a fellow umpire, it must suck to be you.

Uh oh....
 

I feel that volunteer vs paid thing coming on again....

You know, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I worked quite a bit of volunteer baseball the past few weeks. LL Minors District, LL Majors District, LL Juniors District, LL Juniors State Tourney and Championship.

Tonight I'll work adult ball for money.

Big whoop.

One thing I want the "arms behind the back" people to address, though. How do you lock in at the same exact place every time, consistently, every pitch, through 6/7/9 innings of baseball?

The arms are an important part of establishing a lock-point. Most umpires that work heel-toe lock in by putting a forearm across their bodies to lock in. Scissors umpires put their hands on their knee to lock in at the same place. Those, like me, that use a hands-on-knees use those hands and feet placement to lock in.

Most umpires that put their hands behind their backs or legs have moving heads when pitches come in. And it is not possible to be the best umpire you can be if you're head is moving when you are calling balls and strikes.

And those people who say Garth is "above" doing youth ball have no idea what you're talking about. I know for a fact he's the UIC for the AAU 13-14 Nationals. I wonder how many hands behind the back umpires he will seriously use in this tournament.

Rich

"I wonder how many hands behind the back umpires he will seriously use in this tournament."

Easy answer... Exactly Zero. Garth has made it quite clear that anyone opting for personal protection versus doing it the way the pros do, has no place on his, or any other assignors' fields.

Unless the plate ump is making shadow figures with his hands behind the plate, I've never considered the position of the arms or hands during the pitch to be an indication of anything relative to his or her level of knowledge or abilities. Unless it's a distraction, It's simply not a factor. You and Garth can use your criteria for what you're looking for and how you judge an umpire, and I will use mine.

I have never had a single complaint from anyone involved with the league I do assignments for regarding mechanics of the umpires. Respect for an umpire comes from knowledge and proper application of the rules and from effective game management. I have not found either of those items is covered in the mechanics books.

Like I said earlier, if I had wanted to advance to pro ball, I may have chosen to follow the herd. Since that is not my chosen course in life; I have opted for what works best for me.

Re: You must a real pro, I guess.........
 

Originally posted by Mike Follett

...but I still disagree, which is my right, with your opinion.</b>

Yes it is.

<b>No, I don't work MLB, and yes, I work youth ball, and have done it for a long damn time. I'm a very good umpire, who also happens to project professionalism on the field, albeit for those players 18 and under.</b>

Good.

<b> You use the term "youth ball" like there's something less important about calling at that level, than whatever level you happen to work for. </b>

No I didn't. I refered to where umpires who do not conform to association standards work in my area and that, as I said in my post, is the <b>lower levels</b> of youth ball; the beginning areas for both kids and, in this area, umpires.


<b>Here's a newsflash for you pal; there's a lot more of us, than there are of you.</b>

Us? You? Who is us? Who is you? If "us" are youth umpires, I still work some youth ball 13U, 14U and up, so I guess I'm not a "you", I'm an "us". Right? I never meant to disparage youth umpires. Again, I explained that in my association, those who choose not to utilize standard mechanics, including stances, remain at the lower levels of youth ball. We still have many fine umpires who work youth ball, but who also work higher levels.


<b>Just because I happen to give my time to the youth of my community, who that game means more to than anyone, doesn't mean I'm any less of a pro at what I do, than you.</b>

Never said it did. And I never claimed to be a "pro." You need to relax a little. What I said was that in my opinion umpires proper stances (mechanics) and appearance in important in setting the tone for a game. I beleive that. And in my area, hands behind the back is not considered a proper stance, by both umpires and coaches. Of course, as an acquaintance says, your mileage may vary.</B.


<b>Not once have I heard anyone with any common sense, say, "Man, that guy behind the plate sucks because he doesn't have his hands hanging out in front of him like an ape".</b>

It's not so much what they say as it is what they think. Put two umpires next to one another. One takes a proper, professional stance. The other puts his hands behind his back like they do in cartoons, and, in this area, 9-10 year old ball. Which one do the coaches respond to most positively, initially?


<b>If that's one of the keys that you use to judge a fellow umpire, it must suck to be you.

Honestly, that is one of the areas we consider in our umpire performance evaluations. It's right on the top of our evaluation sheet: "Appearance" and again later in the middle of the sheet under "Mechanics".

And actually, I find it quite fun to be me. I call a wide diversity of baseball. I work with wonderful partners most of the time. I have been called upon to assign local, state, regional and national tournaments. I am the chairman of our associations evaluation committee.

Outside of baseball I have two wonderful, loving and talented boys. I have had a wife far better than I deserve for the last 29 years. I have a job that allows me time to umpire baseball and referee football and basketball. I derive strength and pleasure from my faith. Overall, life has been good.

If I were take this all too seriously, jump to conclusions and hastily write defensive posts when I didn't understand what was being said, I wouldn't be having as much fun.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 29th, 2003 at 04:50 PM]

very well said rich. i'm a heel-toe guy and i use the arm that is on the side the batter is on across my belt/stomach area. the other arm is usually just straight down my side. i find that it helps me stay copmletely motionless and locked in to a pitch like you said.

cool to know that garth is the UIC for that AAU tournament. my little brother is playing in the 14 yr. old AAU tournament right now in floirda at the Disney sports complex. i talked to him and he said the umpires have been great, so garth must be doing his job well if we are all talking about the same AAU tournament.

garth, are you at the tournament i'm talking about in the above paragraph?

No. I wish I was. I love the golf courses down there.

AAU has more than one "national". There are AAU Eastern Nationals, AAU Western Nationals, and, I suppose there might be a Southern Nationals.

I assigned the Northwest qualifier for the Western AAU 13U/14U Nationals last week-end and I am assigning the Western Nationals which will be held in Spokane, Washington August 20, 21, 22, 23, 24. I'll be using umpires from Idaho, Washington, Oregon and California.

We have good umpires also. Some have worked mostly youth levels and some have worked everything up to D-1 and minor league pro ball. But in this area, when they first set up behind the plate, it's hard to tell who is who. They all look good.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 29th, 2003 at 04:53 PM]

PatF writes: <b>Easy answer... Exactly Zero. Garth has made it quite clear that anyone opting for personal protection versus doing it the way the pros do, has no place on his, or any other assignors' fields.
</b>

Another fine example of rewording to make one's point. If you can't make your point without changing what one has said, you haven't thought it out very clearly.

What I actually said was: "There are ways of protecting oneself without projecting the image someone who came out of the stands to fill in."

And I said " Because no one who uses that stance will ever move up in the association beyond that level."

So your first statement is correct, zero. Why? Because here umpires who refuse to follow association mechanics do not get to work the competitive level of ball that will be necessary to work this tournament. And that was their choice.

However, I never said and never implied and never believed that an umpire has to forgo "personal protection." I believe it can be accomplished while taking a correct stance.





[Edited by GarthB on Jul 29th, 2003 at 04:51 PM]

yeah i know theres more than one national, just seeing where yours was. a few umps he talked to work college games (a few SEC confrence guys i think he said) and they are very good and very professional in doing their job.

good luck with your tournament.

Striker writes:<b>I feel that volunteer vs paid thing coming on again....</b>


Nahhhh. Not taking that bait. Besides, that was resolved to my satisfaction in a wonderful column at Officiating.com a couple of summers ago. ;)

Locking in
 

Yes, Garth, and very well written indeed. I just couldn't help but stir the pot a little.

To answer the "locking in" question: I use much the same motion that those that put their hands on their thighs or tops of knees use, with one small added motion. I use the box stance in the slot. Pitcher ready, squat with my hands on my thighs. As pitcher completes wind up or moves from the set, my hands move from the top to just underneath my knee (not behind my back). This keeps my hands and arms protected, "locks in" my torso and keeps my head still. Works very well for me and I have been told by my evaluators that my zone is consistent.

[Edited by Striker991 on Jul 29th, 2003 at 05:15 PM]

One thing this ape would like to add, something that a lot of you already know, is how timing/the pause is the key to calling balls and strikes behind the plate. Even though my forearm still hurts 3 days later I will not go back to the old way of squatting and the reason why is because when I squatted I came up WAY TOO SOON after the pitch and made the call. While in the locked stance I don't feel that need and therefore I can take my time when calling the pitch. Believe me, when the ball tickles the outside corner (or is a little low) I have just that much more time to make the decision on the call and that really has made all the difference.

I am not the most knowledgable umpire nor are my mechanics the best in the world but I have been complimented many times over from coaches, players and fans, about the consistency of my calls, which happens to be noticed umteen more times during the game than anything else.......except maybe my stance. haha!

<b>I have been told by my evaluators that my zone is consistent.</b>

Excellent. Your stance sounds comfortable, which I believe is another key.

Years ago, in my petulant youth, I tried copying this ump and that ump. I tried scissors and the knee. Nothing felt comfortable. I always felt like I was working harder than I should be.

After a camp I went to about five years ago, I began using a double wide stance. (Even before the current "Gerry Davis" stance craze). I experimented with different head heights, arm/hand positions and various degrees of being "in the slot".

Three years ago as I began a new season, I settled on keeping the double wide stance, standing a little higher than "usual" and placing my hands on my thighs slightly above the knees. If I get a shot to the hands, they are not between the ball and a hard spot and are protected better from injury.

I pull my elbows towards my body slightly which turns my arms so that the fleshy side is forward and any shot to the elbows would a glancing shot and no bony structure is exposed to a direct hit.

I find being slightly higher and back from the catcher a bit, but still in the slot, the outside courner and the low pitch are more easily definable. My superiors have told me that the I have become very consistent at the knee, and I have notice a marked absence of moans from the dugout when I call strikes at the knee over the outside.

The most important difference I have noted is that I feel comfortable in my stance. I do not feel like I have to work to see the pitches. I can more accurately <b>report </b> where the pitch was, instead of tyring to <b>decide</b> where the pitch was. Ya know what I mean?

I realize I still miss some pitches. I think I have a realistic view of that. I believe ANYBODY who walks away from a game and says, "I didn't miss a pitch" or I missed one" is fooling only himself, or has a huge strike zone.


Glad to hear you're doing well. C'mon up to Spokane in August. I can still use some more umpires at the tournament.

I also settled on the same stance two summers ago and love it.

I have also found that by moving back from F2 and staying in the slot that there is a less chance of being hit by the ball.

Most foul balls will either go over F2's head or go between F2 and PU. And if F2 misses it its usually inside and will not hit me square.

The only time I got hit hard this summer was on a pitchout that the F2 just stood up and then moved out and F1 threw it right down the middle.

Ugh!

Thanks
David

Re: You must a real pro, I guess.........
 

Mike is certainly free to disagree about whether or not it is the right technique or looks good to have your hands behind your back when you work the plate. I had a partner this past weekend in the second game of a doubleheader with this habit. I noticed it immediately. He also seemed to have some issues with dugouts questioning his zone. I think the point Rich made is that umpires who want to "move up" the ranks should not assume this position when calling balls and strikes. If you are comfortable doing whatever level of ball you are doing and this stance works for you than stay with it. I umpire "youth ball" and take it quite seriously as well. Jim / NYC

I knew one guy that regularly placed his arms behind his back in his plate stance. He worked a lot of high school, legion, and adult amateur ball. The only problem was, he didn't have a proper chest protector. It was one of those cheap compacted foam things with the plastic shoulder pads. So, his arms were fully protected behind his back and safe from any sharply fouled balls. His collarbone, however, splintered. It ended his season. He's back this year, though, with a West Vest.

I understand people wanting to put hand on knees but I tell my umps to try the wrists. I have an ump that is going to pitch for Oklahoma in spring of 2004 and told him to use wrist and to keep the hands loose this way his pitching hand has a seriously less chance of getting broken if by chance it does get hurt. He said he still feels locked in doing it this way..

I personally keep one arm across my belt in front and my left arm a tuck to my side actaully grabbing the back of my leg. I use this as my lock and it helps me with my timing as well as it takes a tenth of a second for it to make the strike call. I have also backed away from F2 a bit as well and found I can see things a little better instead of having them explode in my face at times. Although the one hand is kinda behind me, I am balanced, locked (actually better I feel) and I feel calling better overall. Unfortunetly my "mentor" is recovering from open heart surgury so I have not been able to get his input on my stance yet.

I used to do something like that, where I tucked my hand behind my knee, essentially grabbing the back of my leg. The problem I had with it is when I got fatigued, which would happen after 2-1/2 to 3 hours in the blazing July or August sunshine with a 75° dew point, my elbow would fly out. I didn't even realize it until I took a foul ball off of it. I tried hard to remember to keep it tucked, but that wasn't good enough under some of the conditions that our adult amateur leagues placed me in.