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-   -   Pickoff Attempt At 2nd - Balk? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/94950-pickoff-attempt-2nd-balk.html)

Spence Sun May 05, 2013 04:20pm

Pickoff Attempt At 2nd - Balk?
 
R2.

F1 spins and attempts to pick off the runner.
Throws to F6 who is , say, 10 feet from the base.
Legal?

Balk rule says step directly toward the base. Does this satisfy it(I realize it might be a HTBT). If F6 is in his "normal" defensive position would that be a balk?

Trying to see what the limits are here.

Thanks

dash_riprock Sun May 05, 2013 04:24pm

Since F1 doesn't have to throw at all, a step in the general direction of 2nd base (more towards 2nd than 1st or 3rd) is all that is needed. No balk.

Forest Ump Sun May 05, 2013 04:28pm

F1 is not required to throw the ball to F6 or to F4 for that matter. He need only step towards second before feinting or throwing. Turning and stepping satisfies that requirement. Since he can feint or throw, it makes no difference where F6 or F4 are playing.

Spence Sun May 05, 2013 04:36pm

Thanks.

Let's change it to 1b then just so I can get an idea of the requirements.

F3 playing behind the bag and off the line ie normal defensive position. Throw to him. Anything?

Rich Ives Sun May 05, 2013 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 892949)
Thanks.

Let's change it to 1b then just so I can get an idea of the requirements.

F3 playing behind the bag and off the line in normal defensive position. Throw to him. Anything?

Balk. You have to throw to 1B, not F3. Same with 3B/F5 if you've adopted the new OBR rule.

bob jenkins Sun May 05, 2013 06:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 892950)
Balk. You have to throw to 1B, not F3. Same with 3B/F5 if you've adopted the new OBR rule.

Unless he's in a position to make a play (which isn't likely given the most recent play here, but just for completeness sake)

RPatrino Sun May 05, 2013 07:33pm

Yes, the key in the throw to F3 behind the bag is if he is attempting to make a play.

Also, there has been much debate over the years about it being impossible to balk to second base. Absent some other illegal activity (not associated with the move to 2b), I tend to agree.

Spence Sun May 05, 2013 10:04pm

Help me out. I'm talking to an umpire who is hanging his hat on the fact that "if he throws to 2nd base it has to be 'to the base' ."

I found an interp from Wendelstedt but he says that's "old."

Can you point me to recent interps regarding this? Note: I'm not an umpire - I just try to know the rules.

Daryl H. Long Sun May 05, 2013 10:22pm

NF Case 6.2.4 Sit J should help with what others have been saying. Key is proximity to the base and is totally umpire judgement.

umpjim Sun May 05, 2013 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence (Post 892977)
Help me out. I'm talking to an umpire who is hanging his hat on the fact that "if he throws to 2nd base it has to be 'to the base' ."

I found an interp from Wendelstedt but he says that's "old."

Can you point me to recent interps regarding this? Note: I'm not an umpire - I just try to know the rules.

What's old as of this year is that he doesn't have to throw to 3B. He can't do that this year. Feints and therefore throws to a fielder near 2B are still allowed.

Are you sure you are talking to an umpire?

Tim C Tue May 07, 2013 07:16pm

Really,
 
I am not surprised what some "umpires" tell other umpires.

Obviously all these guys have given you the correct ruling.

If you consider the following:

With second base occupied a pitcher really has free range. He can turn and stop and not throw . . . he can throw to either F6 or F4 no matter their location. He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2.

Actually as it is so difficult to even find a "what if" we teach that:

'It is impossible to balk (to an occupied) second base. We believe if we teach it that way EVEN IF A BALK was somehow committed it would be best to miss that 'third world play' than have umpires balking clearly legally plays at second base.

The "umpire" that gave you his ruling is a twit.

Tee

umpjim Tue May 07, 2013 11:40pm

" He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2."

When you put that on paper I would say it's a balk. In real life maybe we don't call it. But it is not a violation of IITBTSB, it's an 8.05(a) balk if called.

bluehair Wed May 08, 2013 08:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893222)
" He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2."

When you put that on paper I would say it's a balk. In real life maybe we don't call it. But it is not a violation of IITBTSB, it's an 8.05(a) balk if called.

No maybe about it...no balk. Did F1 keep his hands together while moving towards 2B? If not, then I have a fake/aborted throw to 2B followed by some silly looking crap. Even considering this a balk is OOO.

MD Longhorn Wed May 08, 2013 08:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893222)
" He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2."

Not a balk.

umpjim Wed May 08, 2013 10:55am

Had a college coach show me a thing he taught his pitchers. In the set, hands together, F1 would have a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot and step to 2B. He said it was rarely caught.

Also there is the simultaneous step off and backwards throw to 2B that I'm starting to see more of. I balk that.

bluehair Wed May 08, 2013 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893264)
Had a college coach show me a thing he taught his pitchers. In the set, hands together, F1 would have a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot and step to 2B. He said it was rarely caught.

Also there is the simultaneous step off and backwards throw to 2B that I'm starting to see more of. I balk that.

What advantage did F1 gain by "a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot"? What was the coach teaching". I don't get it.

We have a guy in our chapter who has a reputation of using his active imagination when calling balks...don't be that guy. But if you've got to be that guy, don't be my partner.

MD Longhorn Wed May 08, 2013 12:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehair (Post 893267)
What advantage did F1 gain by "a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot"? What was the coach teaching". I don't get it.

I agree completely. No reward, all risk... not a healthy idea.

jicecone Wed May 08, 2013 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893264)
Had a college coach show me a thing he taught his pitchers. In the set, hands together, F1 would have a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot and step to 2B. He said it was rarely caught.

Also there is the simultaneous step off and backwards throw to 2B that I'm starting to see more of. I balk that.

:confused: I did about 33 HS Var this year and called 5-6 Balks. 3 were associated with the Hybrid pitching stance. The others were just obvious. How many do you call in a season if you are analizing to such minute detail?

umpjim Wed May 08, 2013 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehair (Post 893267)
What advantage did F1 gain by "a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot"? What was the coach teaching". I don't get it.

We have a guy in our chapter who has a reputation of using his active imagination when calling balks...don't be that guy. But if you've got to be that guy, don't be my partner.

He said the runner would think the pitcher was starting to go home and would be leaning. He said they were pretty successful with the move.

bob jenkins Wed May 08, 2013 01:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893264)
Also there is the simultaneous step off and backwards throw to 2B that I'm starting to see more of. I balk that.

Where do they get this?

umpjim Wed May 08, 2013 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 893291)
Where do they get this?

Don't know but I'm seeing it occasionally. Can't be from the pros.

Steven Tyler Wed May 08, 2013 11:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893294)
Don't know but I'm seeing it occasionally. Can't be from the pros.

You work college ball, and the move you described baffles you?

umpjim Thu May 09, 2013 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 893358)
You work college ball, and the move you described baffles you?

I work very little college, JUCO, non conference, but I don't think you are picturing what I have described.

MD Longhorn Thu May 09, 2013 11:42am

Can't help but chuckle.

So what do you do when "they" don't realize they are "they" and keep on acting like "they" act?

RPatrino Thu May 09, 2013 01:30pm

We have met the enemy and they is us.

umpjim Thu May 09, 2013 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 893386)
Can't help but chuckle.

So what do you do when "they" don't realize they are "they" and keep on acting like "they" act?

So your saying that I'm the "they" in Bob's post. That went over my head.
In any case I'm saying that there are balks that can be called with R2 and do not violate the IITBTSB rule of thumb.
Do you balk a pitcher that hangs everything in his look back to 2B in his delivery?

MD Longhorn Thu May 09, 2013 03:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893404)
So your saying that I'm the "they" in Bob's post. That went over my head.

No worries... :)
Quote:

In any case I'm saying that there are balks that can be called with R2 and do not violate the IITBTSB rule of thumb.
We hear you saying that.
Quote:

Do you balk a pitcher that hangs everything in his look back to 2B in his delivery?
Tell me what he actually does and what rule he breaks. I'm not getting a picture from that description at all. Define "hangs everything" and "delivery" in the context of what you're actually asking.

bluehair Thu May 09, 2013 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893404)
So your saying that I'm the "they" in Bob's post. That went over my head.
In any case I'm saying that there are balks that can be called with R2 and do not violate the IITBTSB rule of thumb.
Do you balk a pitcher that hangs everything in his look back to 2B in his delivery?

Although this video is of Luis Tiant's wind-up, his set delivery "hangs everything" just like his windup with R2. Nobody balked el Tiant.

umpjim Thu May 09, 2013 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehair (Post 893418)
Although this video is of Luis Tiant's wind-up, his set delivery "hangs everything" just like his windup with R2. Nobody balked el Tiant.

I wouldn't either. But if he paused while in the look back to 2B and nothing was moving I would balk it.

MD Longhorn Fri May 10, 2013 08:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893424)
I wouldn't either. But if he paused while in the look back to 2B and nothing was moving I would balk it.

For breaking what rule, exactly?

thumpferee Fri May 10, 2013 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 893502)
For breaking what rule, exactly?

Continuous motion

MD Longhorn Fri May 10, 2013 10:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 893533)
Continuous motion

That's not a rule... it's just two words. I was trying to walk him through it to get him to the correct conclusion...

But the rule to which you obliquely refer, this is a balk to HOME, not a balk to 2nd.

thumpferee Fri May 10, 2013 10:49am

Agreed!

We still talking IIITBTSB?

MD Longhorn Fri May 10, 2013 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 893536)
Agreed!

We still talking IIITBTSB?

Yes.

jicecone Fri May 10, 2013 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thumpferee (Post 893533)
Continuous motion

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side;from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Not applicable here. We are talking after the set.

umpjim Fri May 10, 2013 11:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 893539)
"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side;from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Not applicable here. We are talking after the set.

"8.01(b) After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption."

Although no penalty is listed for violating most of the 8.01 restrictions, accepted practice in OBR is to balk this and "start stop".

Other codes actually prescribe the balk.

I thought the point I was making was that a balk can be called "to home" with R2. I guess I wasn't clear. I agree that IITBTSB.

Steven Tyler Fri May 10, 2013 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893424)
I wouldn't either. But if he paused while in the look back to 2B and nothing was moving I would balk it.

Okay, he has stopped his motion from going home. Balk. But Mike Mussina, Hideki Nomo, Mariano Riveria actually by the rule book balk. Not called in MLB. I try not pick boogers at the lower level only if they so very obvious. Gorilla arm is a fine example from a few years ago in FED. By the wording in OBR, gorilla are should not be permitted.

Many pitchers probably break their hands before they have completely stepped of the back of the rubber before throwing to first. I've haven't really noticed that split second move, but I'm not looking at that part to begin with.

Sorry, if I offended you......bless your heart for working JUCO ball. Those games can be brutal. Double headers, oy vey! Been there, done that.

bob jenkins Sun May 12, 2013 09:01am

R2. RH pitcher. Comes set. Simultaneously stepw with his right (pivot) foot toward second and throws the ball. No (or limited) pivot on left (front foot). Awkward, but do-able.

Balk? Why?

umpjim Sun May 12, 2013 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 893720)
R2. RH pitcher. Comes set. Simultaneously stepw with his right (pivot) foot toward second and throws the ball. No (or limited) pivot on left (front foot). Awkward, but do-able.

Balk? Why?

The pivot foot is supposed to land before the hands come apart. Granted, on snap throws to 1B or 3B we don't enforce it because it happens quickly, but on this move the foot not landing while the hands are already apart seems a lot more obvious.

jicecone Sun May 12, 2013 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 893730)
The pivot foot is supposed to land before the hands come apart. Granted, on snap throws to 1B or 3B we don't enforce it because it happens quickly, but on this move the foot not landing while the hands are already apart seems a lot more obvious.

The pivot foot is supposed to land before the pitcher throws to a base. The pitcher has to step off before separating the hands, otherwise he has begun to pitch and then he has to complete it.

umpjim Sat May 18, 2013 12:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 893733)
The pivot foot is supposed to land before the pitcher throws to a base. The pitcher has to step off before separating the hands, otherwise he has begun to pitch and then he has to complete it.

Just got back to this. Cant tell if you are correcting my previous post or aggreeing with it.

jicecone Sat May 18, 2013 12:55pm

I was saying that there is not a requirement that the foot has to land before he separates his hands. It does have to land before he throws to a base though. However, if the pitcher separates their hands before they step off, then they have begun to pitch and have to complete it.

Granted sometimes there is a fine line between when he steps off and separates his hands.

Steven Tyler Sat May 18, 2013 06:56pm

If you're not stealing, or going on first movement when on 2nd or 3rd, you have no business getting picked off the base.


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