Pickoff Attempt At 2nd - Balk?
 

R2.

F1 spins and attempts to pick off the runner.
Throws to F6 who is , say, 10 feet from the base.
Legal?

Balk rule says step directly toward the base. Does this satisfy it(I realize it might be a HTBT). If F6 is in his "normal" defensive position would that be a balk?

Trying to see what the limits are here.

Thanks

Since F1 doesn't have to throw at all, a step in the general direction of 2nd base (more towards 2nd than 1st or 3rd) is all that is needed. No balk.

F1 is not required to throw the ball to F6 or to F4 for that matter. He need only step towards second before feinting or throwing. Turning and stepping satisfies that requirement. Since he can feint or throw, it makes no difference where F6 or F4 are playing.

Thanks.

Let's change it to 1b then just so I can get an idea of the requirements.

F3 playing behind the bag and off the line ie normal defensive position. Throw to him. Anything?

Balk. You have to throw to 1B, not F3. Same with 3B/F5 if you've adopted the new OBR rule.

Unless he's in a position to make a play (which isn't likely given the most recent play here, but just for completeness sake)

Yes, the key in the throw to F3 behind the bag is if he is attempting to make a play.

Also, there has been much debate over the years about it being impossible to balk to second base. Absent some other illegal activity (not associated with the move to 2b), I tend to agree.

Help me out. I'm talking to an umpire who is hanging his hat on the fact that "if he throws to 2nd base it has to be 'to the base' ."

I found an interp from Wendelstedt but he says that's "old."

Can you point me to recent interps regarding this? Note: I'm not an umpire - I just try to know the rules.

NF Case 6.2.4 Sit J should help with what others have been saying. Key is proximity to the base and is totally umpire judgement.

What's old as of this year is that he doesn't have to throw to 3B. He can't do that this year. Feints and therefore throws to a fielder near 2B are still allowed.

Are you sure you are talking to an umpire?

Really,
 

I am not surprised what some "umpires" tell other umpires.

Obviously all these guys have given you the correct ruling.

If you consider the following:

With second base occupied a pitcher really has free range. He can turn and stop and not throw . . . he can throw to either F6 or F4 no matter their location. He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2.

Actually as it is so difficult to even find a "what if" we teach that:

'It is impossible to balk (to an occupied) second base. We believe if we teach it that way EVEN IF A BALK was somehow committed it would be best to miss that 'third world play' than have umpires balking clearly legally plays at second base.

The "umpire" that gave you his ruling is a twit.

Tee

" He can start his motion, step behind the pitcher's plate and start running at R2."

When you put that on paper I would say it's a balk. In real life maybe we don't call it. But it is not a violation of IITBTSB, it's an 8.05(a) balk if called.

No maybe about it...no balk. Did F1 keep his hands together while moving towards 2B? If not, then I have a fake/aborted throw to 2B followed by some silly looking crap. Even considering this a balk is OOO.

Not a balk.

Had a college coach show me a thing he taught his pitchers. In the set, hands together, F1 would have a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot and step to 2B. He said it was rarely caught.

Also there is the simultaneous step off and backwards throw to 2B that I'm starting to see more of. I balk that.

What advantage did F1 gain by "a slow subtle hand break a moment before the pivot"? What was the coach teaching". I don't get it.

We have a guy in our chapter who has a reputation of using his active imagination when calling balks...don't be that guy. But if you've got to be that guy, don't be my partner.

I agree completely. No reward, all risk... not a healthy idea.

:confused: I did about 33 HS Var this year and called 5-6 Balks. 3 were associated with the Hybrid pitching stance. The others were just obvious. How many do you call in a season if you are analizing to such minute detail?

He said the runner would think the pitcher was starting to go home and would be leaning. He said they were pretty successful with the move.

Where do they get this?

Don't know but I'm seeing it occasionally. Can't be from the pros.

You work college ball, and the move you described baffles you?

I work very little college, JUCO, non conference, but I don't think you are picturing what I have described.

Can't help but chuckle.

So what do you do when "they" don't realize they are "they" and keep on acting like "they" act?

We have met the enemy and they is us.

So your saying that I'm the "they" in Bob's post. That went over my head.
In any case I'm saying that there are balks that can be called with R2 and do not violate the IITBTSB rule of thumb.
Do you balk a pitcher that hangs everything in his look back to 2B in his delivery?

No worries... :)
We hear you saying that.
Tell me what he actually does and what rule he breaks. I'm not getting a picture from that description at all. Define "hangs everything" and "delivery" in the context of what you're actually asking.

Although this video is of Luis Tiant's wind-up, his set delivery "hangs everything" just like his windup with R2. Nobody balked el Tiant.

I wouldn't either. But if he paused while in the look back to 2B and nothing was moving I would balk it.

For breaking what rule, exactly?

Continuous motion

That's not a rule... it's just two words. I was trying to walk him through it to get him to the correct conclusion...

But the rule to which you obliquely refer, this is a balk to HOME, not a balk to 2nd.

Agreed!

We still talking IIITBTSB?

Yes.

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side;from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Not applicable here. We are talking after the set.

"8.01(b) After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption."

Although no penalty is listed for violating most of the 8.01 restrictions, accepted practice in OBR is to balk this and "start stop".

Other codes actually prescribe the balk.

I thought the point I was making was that a balk can be called "to home" with R2. I guess I wasn't clear. I agree that IITBTSB.

Okay, he has stopped his motion from going home. Balk. But Mike Mussina, Hideki Nomo, Mariano Riveria actually by the rule book balk. Not called in MLB. I try not pick boogers at the lower level only if they so very obvious. Gorilla arm is a fine example from a few years ago in FED. By the wording in OBR, gorilla are should not be permitted.

Many pitchers probably break their hands before they have completely stepped of the back of the rubber before throwing to first. I've haven't really noticed that split second move, but I'm not looking at that part to begin with.

Sorry, if I offended you......bless your heart for working JUCO ball. Those games can be brutal. Double headers, oy vey! Been there, done that.

R2. RH pitcher. Comes set. Simultaneously stepw with his right (pivot) foot toward second and throws the ball. No (or limited) pivot on left (front foot). Awkward, but do-able.

Balk? Why?

The pivot foot is supposed to land before the hands come apart. Granted, on snap throws to 1B or 3B we don't enforce it because it happens quickly, but on this move the foot not landing while the hands are already apart seems a lot more obvious.

The pivot foot is supposed to land before the pitcher throws to a base. The pitcher has to step off before separating the hands, otherwise he has begun to pitch and then he has to complete it.

Just got back to this. Cant tell if you are correcting my previous post or aggreeing with it.

I was saying that there is not a requirement that the foot has to land before he separates his hands. It does have to land before he throws to a base though. However, if the pitcher separates their hands before they step off, then they have begun to pitch and have to complete it.

Granted sometimes there is a fine line between when he steps off and separates his hands.

If you're not stealing, or going on first movement when on 2nd or 3rd, you have no business getting picked off the base.