Safe on 2nd, goes back to 1st
 

OBR. But I'd like to see the FED rule.

R1 & R2. Double steal, F1 throws to F5 on a pickoff attempt. R2 caught in a rundown goes back to 2nd. R1 arrives at 2nd. R1 called out. R2 thinking he is out jogs toward the dugout. 1st base coach tells R2 the ball is live and to get on the bag at first. R2 arrives safely at 1st and remains there for the next pitch.

I looked up "running bases in reverse order" on the internet, because they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true (insert sarcasm emoticon here). I was surprised to find the word "myth" come up often. That very scenario was allowed in Milwaukee Friday night. Since I broadcast high school games, in the unlikely event I see something similar, would running back to first after legally acquiring second be allowed in FED rules?

In both pro and HS (FED) rules running the bases in reverse order is only illegal if done to confuse the defense or to make a travesty. Neither was the case here.

If just running in reverse order was illegal you couldn't have a rundown.

True. But in this case, R2 started at second base on the pitch. He cannot legally return to first base when play is complete.

Of course, I'm assuming by "R1 and R2", he meant that R2 was the runner who started out at second base, and not at first base. That's how I understood it, based upon his description of what happened.

I'm not sure what the FED rule is, but in OBR, it's the Rule 7.01 Comment.

My take: It was a new play. The clock starts over.

It was, Manny. R1 on first base, R2 on second base. My apologies if that is wrong and caused confusion.

That's right, and I think both the Cubs and the umpires got it wrong

Hypothetical situation;

Nobody on, nobody out. B1 hits a clean double and after play has ceased, stupid B1 walks off second base toward the first base coach to hand him his batting gloves without requesting "Time". The first base coach tells him the ball is live and to get on the bag. But B1 is now 10 feet from second and now the defense realizes what is happening. They throw to F6 who is at second base. B1 is safe at first on a throw that is dropped by F3.

Anything wrong with this? Is this different than the OP?

I'll take a shot on part two. It is different from the OP because the ball never was dead, and then put back in play. In the OP, the runner acquired 2nd base, the play was then dead, then the ball was put back in play, then the double steal attempt happened and Segura wound up on first. In your sitch, the ball is still live throughout. That is why I am confused, simply from lack of studying the rulebook. If the ball is live throughout, I know he can go back. But if a runner acquires second base, then the ball is dead and made back live, can he go back to first?

It's not about being dead - it's about the pitcher getting the ball on the rubber.

And as I said to Manny - I think that resets (or should) each play. IOW, the fire drill continues until play relaxes and the pitcher gets on the rubber. Then with the next play the drill can restart.

I've been wrong before.

Don't have my book with me, but isn't there a FED rule about a runner being out if he abandons his effort to advance?

Of course, the kicker to all this is that Segura was subsequently thrown out trying to
(re)steal second.

Theres an abandoment clause in all the rules sets.

In MLB, it's (generally) not going to be invoked until R2 gets into foul territory. I think this runner did make it to foul territory (but I haven't seen the play recently.)

For an R1 or R3, he'll have to be "well into" foul territory.

I can't imagine that the Comment after OBR 7.01 applies to each and every subsequent pitch.

By your understanding, B1 could hit a clean double, and then B2 and B3 strike out. R2 erroneously thinks there are three outs, so he starts jogging to his dugout on the first base side. He is informed more than halfway to first by his base coach that there are only two outs. I can't imagine that the rules would allow him to hightail it to first base to avoid the out.

7.01 says that once a runner achieves legal entitlement to a base, only two things can happen to him. He can either be put out or be forced to vacate the base by another runner who gains legal entitlement to that base. There is no option for him to return to a previous base.

7.02 says a runner can go to a previous base only if "forced to return". He is only forced to return if he is subject to an appeal for missing a base or failing to tag up properly, or if another runner is legally entitled to the base he tried to achieve. Arbitrarily returning to a previous base because of confusion or some other strange reason is not something I would categorize as being "forced to return."

Bad assumption. I said on each play (new fire drill), not on each pitch.

7.01 is subject to debate of course. Given there has been no "oops" yet from MLB I'd vote that it was called properly.

7.02 is definitely about being part of a play or its result (e.g. return to retouch while live, or on an award during a dead ball).

Segura baserunning :confused:
 

Hi,

Here is the clip:
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...y_26416825&v=3

Questions:
1. Isn't that a balk from the pitcher? (he did not break and he threw to an unoccupied base?)
2. Two runners on one base the following runner is out when only when tagged however if the preceding runner stepped off the base thinking he was out and got tagged first would the following runner be able to safely claim second?
3. The runner going back to one was just crazy, right?

One large mess, coming right up...

1. F1 stepped towards 2nd, then disengaged. He was an infielder when he threw to 3rd.

2. Yes. The following runner is out when tagged only if the preceding runner is also on the base.

3. I don't know about crazy, but certainly ignorant of the rule.

BTW: You can throw to an unoccupied if it's to make a play. As the runner was stealing a throw to 3B would be legal.

As Rich stated, you can throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play. Many people don't read the second part of the rule.

Isn't there an obstruction as Segura is returning to 2nd base? And, doesn't Segura get tagged while off the base?

Still a bit confussed
 

Ok, I reread the rule on the pitcher disengaging (break) from the plate:

I didn't see the pitcher do either. But I also reread the unoccupied base rule:

So if the runner is stealing you may just step and throw to the base that he is going to? You don't have to 'break' or disengage? Interesting I always thought that you had to...

I also checked the rule on running bases in reverse order:
So then going all the way back to one was actually legal? Wow!

Ignorant of which rule?

Rita

The rule that says he is entitled to 2nd base and is not out (correctly signaled by U2).

Ok, now that I saw the play:

1. There is no balk on the pitcher. He did step toward second and did not throw, then disengaged and threw to third, all of which is legal.

2. There was no obstruction on F4. He backpedalled and got out of Segura's way at the last second.

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

And Rich, there was at least one pitch delivered to Braun after Segura stole second, for Ball Four that put Braun on first (I assume only one pitch; there could have been more fouled off before the walk that the video replay didn't show). So are you still advocating that Segura can legally return to first base?

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

There are several rules to consider when looking for support on this situation. Check out this link below and it will walk you through the the scenarios ...

Solution for Case Play 2013-03: Segura as R2 Steals First | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

and it also has a video clip ....

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CHC@MIL: Segura's wacky baserunning does not end well - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

R1 is not guilty of passing preceding runner R2 as simultaneous occupation is not passing.

He didn't do either. But, he did make a (legal) move to second and as part of that he came off the rubber so he's now an infielder and can throw anywhere.



A common myth that really shouldn't be a myth.

I don't think 7.08 is the relevant rule. I think it's 7.01

To be out for passing you have to be ENTIRELY past the runner. Fully and completely. Until just after Braun is tagged, he was never fully and entirely past Segura's foot.

That said, look at 0:28 on the video. After Braun is tagged, Segura is OFF the base and tagged again.

I don't believe this was illegal. Describe the part of 7.01 to us that leads you to believe he can't return to first.

It is impossible for both to be touching the base in this way and rule that one has passed the other.

7.01 comment - once the pitcher takes his position R2 has title to second base and can't return to first. He can't go from being an R2 to being an R1.

I don't consider J/R gospel in any way, but in this case I think they're right. Segura should be called out pretty quickly once he heads back to first base.

Yes ... but Segura is no longer touching the bag about a half second after Braun was tagged. Had Braun not been tagged, he would have been "past Segura" about a half second later.

A quote that is not exactly a quote... and the part that is not exactly a quote is the part I would disagree with - you've inferred something and then included it in the quote.

For the record: First ... Comments are meant to explain the rules, and not augment or change them. Second - many who read this (including the site referenced above) believe this comment is not meant to apply once the pitcher steps off.

More fundamentally, though... the RULE does not state in any manner that the runner cannot, in the normal course of play (for instance, while avoiding a player trying to tag him) move backward beyond a base he is "entitled to". The comment leads one to believe he cannot do this with the ball on the mound. I don't see how one can apply this rule or comment to the OP.

(Further ... apparently neither does MLB!)

Who are the folks that posted this on the UEFL website? I seriously doubt they are authoritative interpreters of the rules.

I go back to the scenario I posed earlier to Rich Ives: B1 could hit a clean double, and then B2 and B3 strike out. R2 erroneously thinks there are three outs, so he starts jogging to his dugout on the first base side. He is informed more than halfway to first by his base coach that there are only two outs. I can't imagine that the rules would allow him to hightail it to first base to avoid the out.

I still feel the Comment in 7.01 is to be interpreted as, "Once the pitcher assumes the rubber, a runner cannot return." I don't believe the rules makers intended it to apply at any time after the next pitch or play from when the runner first obtains the advanced base.

Besides, how would you score it? "Runner steals second and then returns to first base one pitch later due to...what??" And he was credited with a steal of second, and a caught stealing of second, during the same on-base period!

Fair enough ... and you're certainly not alone in reading it that way.

Others read it to mean WHILE the pitcher is on the rubber. I bet if you polled 100 umpires, you'd get between 40 and 60 on either side of this. The argument has been mulled before.

OTOH - you have this example, in a real game, with real MLB umpires, who ruled that he could, in fact, return to first. And the last time we hashed this out, it was the same thing... MLB umps, runner allowed to go back to first (that one was an overslide of 2nd, kind of similar play if you take Braun away). So ... given 2 actual plays, and no evidence of MLB coming out saying they screwed it up (either time) ... which way you wanna go?

I didn't quote anything.

Not necessarily that way. Top level umpires aren't necessarily the best interpreters of the rules. And perhaps MLB didn't think it was worth digging deeper into. I read nothing into any of that.

It was years ago, but I was BU in a game where R1 stole 2b with no throw, and for some reason got up, dusted himself off and trotted nonchalant back to 1b. There was no play on him. I think everyone was stunned, me included as I watched him trot back.

We left him at 1b for the next pitch.

Recently..
 

I was BU on a JV game which followed the V game. The offensive team was leading substantially and it was getting dark, so the 1st base coach was sending his runners in an attempt to get them thrown out to get the game over with.(gotta love him) About 6 runners in 2 innings.

Anyway, one runner was safe at 2nd. The ball went back to the pitcher and I see R2 heading back to 1st. I looked at the coach and shrugged my shoulders, he said "let's try this again".

He stayed at 1st!

It's now official. Jean Segura has "stolen" first base for the last time.

And so, for that matter, has everyone else.

This is it, friends -- the third and final episode of our Jean Segura baserunning trilogy, soon not to be made into a major motion picture.

Major League Baseball's baseball operations department has sent out what was described to us as a "clarification" memo to all its umpires. The gist of it is that, in the future, baserunning adventures like Segura's now-legendary backwards trip around the infield last Friday should end with a slightly different outcome than his did.

By which we mean: He should have been called out!

Never saw that coming. Did you?

Well, you did if you were reading this blog Sunday afternoon. We kind of foreshadowed it here then. But let's recap.

It was Friday night. The Brewers shortstop had just stolen second base. Then, with runners on first and second, he took off to try to steal third, wound up in a rundown and somehow, finally, when the dust had settled, found himself all the way back on first. (For more of the wacky details, you might want to click here.

Impossible, you say? Well, that's not what the umpires said at the time.

They cited an addendum to ever-popular MLB rule 7:08(i) which appears to allow a runner who has been decoyed or became otherwise confused to scramble all the way back to first, even if he's already passed second

.
Oops. Wrong rule.

We all know that now, and so do the umpires. The clarification tells them that not just one other rule, but two, should have superseded that one. And both of those rules would have led to the same outcome.

By which we mean again (let's all sing it together): OUT.

Those two rules are these:

• Rule 7:01 says a runner can't settle in at one base and then return to a previous base once the pitcher "assumes his pitching position." In other words, a runner on second can't go back to first for any reason once the pitcher has thrown a pitch -- let alone several, as happened in Segura's case.

• Then there's Rule 7:08(a), which includes a specific comment about a fellow like Segura, who thought he was out, was on his way to the dugout, then found out he was safe and pulled into first for safekeeping. That comment reads like this:

"Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

So what's that mean? It means, in Segura's case, he should have been called out because he "abandoned his effort" to keep running the bases when he left second base "and started towards the first base line."

All righty then. Got all that? Sure hope so. There's going to be a quiz

.
But at least we'll also get another quiz out of this circus that goes like this:

Who's the only player in the last 60 years to steal a base and get thrown out stealing the same base in a span of five pitches?

The answer to that one is Jean Segura, of course. But it sure is a good thing he didn't go on to steal second twice and then score the winning run. Right?

If he had, we're guessing we'd have a lot more than a memo of clarification on our hands.

Good answer. Any link to the official memo (or official press release or similar describing the memo)?

I'm confused
 

When did the pitcher have the ball or throw a pitch during that play? He was already on 1st when he took the mound again.

When did he abandoned his effort? While running to 1st? Maybe I didn't see the whole play, because I sure didn't see him go into the dugout in the clip.

The points of the memo seem to be (based on this reporting):

1) It's whether the pitcher *ever* takes the mound once the advance base has been obtained that counts, not once per "play"

2) Abandonment can be called before the runner gets to foul territory (or to the dugout).

thumpferee,

At the end of the PREVIOUS play.

Bob,

I looked and wasn't able to find anything on the mlb.com website. Yet.

JM

If this is MLB's stand, then at least we know it now. However, I want to see it from an actual MLB source first, especially given that 7.08 is not even remotely in play here... I have skepticism that this description came from MLB ... it seems to conversational and reporterish ... and not "official".

Thanks Bob and JM!

Makes more sense now.

This was reported by Jayson Stark on ESPN.
The final ruling on Jean Segura's baserunning misadventures - ESPN

He cites a memo from MLB...which I am still looking for.

Can't find the memo...but the New York Times confirms it.

On Wednesday M.L.B. finished its internal review, which also determined Segura should have been out based on both of those.

Jean Segura's Reverse Trip on the Bases Is Sorted Out - NYTimes.com