Tucking the Shirt

[bluduc]

Thanks Brian. I also try no to use 9.1.c often. In this case if you quote 1.11 (3) you will get the old " I am not a player
". Just as easy to 9.1.c and get it over with.
I went back later to my Brinkman-Froemming Umpire Development Program book ( I went to the school in 1994).
Pg. # 123, A. Hats.
A hat is not required unless the person is on defense or is coaching a base; when worn, it must be worn properly( hats are not reversible) and a hat must be identical for all teams personnel.
You are correct it is covered by rule interpertation by MLB.
Explain to a 14 and under coach MLB rule interpertation and you get the old deer in the headlight look. Just as easy to 9.1.c it , they can understand "it's so because I say it's so".
As I stated before I have used it very few times, however when I do I have no more problems. I use it only on real #ick heads
when I do not wish to to discuss the situation any longer.
I am refered to as the "60s ump". Peace and love.
Thats my call on a 2 and 2 count.

[Jay R]

My understanding has always been that all players must be dressed uniformly. Thus one player with an untucked shirt is a problem, but the whole team could choose to wear their uniform over their pants.

The Chicago White Sox wore their shirts untucked back in the 70s or 80s? It looked terrible, but it was allowed.

[Ump20]

I cast one vote for players wearing their shirts tucked in and their hats facing forward. I know that this might seem like a picky thing to some but I think it is about respect for the umpire, respect for your team, respect for you, but above all respect for the game. Somewhere when you first put on a pair of shin guards to call balls and strikes there was hopefully someone with experience who told you to dress like an umpire, a professional. I think the same rules apply to players. I think corrective action when needed has to happen within the flow of the game, a 3-2 count on the clean-up hitter with the bases loaded may not be the best time to let F-1 know his tails are hanging out but bases empty and a fly ball to the OF may be a nice moment in time. Jim / NYC

[pollywolly60]

Why should getting a shirt tucked in slow down a game? If it's important to you as an umpire, address it in your pregame. Then if you see an on- deck batter with shirt out, have them take care of it while they are on-deck.

[Ump20]

Originally posted by pollywolly60
Why should getting a shirt tucked in slow down a game? If it's important to you as an umpire, address it in your pregame. Then if you see an on- deck batter with shirt out, have them take care of it while they are on-deck.

I don't think it is necessary for umpires to discuss proper attire before the game except when you have a league rule prohibiting jewelry in which case you may want to remind coaches to have players remove the stuff. As far as pitchers -- oftentimes you can have a player with a shirt one-size too small and every inning or two the shirt comes out in the back. I think you have to be judicious about handling that situation. A lull in the action works better than a critical game situation.

[pollywolly60]

Just re-read this thread and realized the problem being addressed was F1(pitcher) and not batter. I agree that general dress codes shouldn't have to be covered in pregame. I guess I haven't had this problem occur in a game yet - only with the batters. I can't envision myself stopping a pitcher in the middle of a batter's at-bat to have him tuck in his shirt, but can see doing it at a time when play has stopped. Different umpires feel more strongly about some rules that are considered "nit-picky" by other umpires. I say, if you want something stressed that doesn't normally get stressed, you might be safe to cover it in your pregame. Can save you some hassle later in the game.

[Ump20]

Originally posted by pollywolly60
Just re-read this thread and realized the problem being addressed was F1(pitcher) and not batter. I agree that general dress codes shouldn't have to be covered in pregame. I guess I haven't had this problem occur in a game yet - only with the batters. I can't envision myself stopping a pitcher in the middle of a batter's at-bat to have him tuck in his shirt, but can see doing it at a time when play has stopped. Different umpires feel more strongly about some rules that are considered "nit-picky" by other umpires. I say, if you want something stressed that doesn't normally get stressed, you might be safe to cover it in your pregame. Can save you some hassle later in the game.

I agree that some umpires are indeed "nitpickers" and I fear bringing the dress code of the day up in a pre-game might tend to heighten teams' impressions that the day's umpire is such a stickler for details. BUT, besides overall appearance "managing" that odd looking shirt prevents the other team from causing grief by raising the issue especially at a key moment in the game. I sure don't want to say sloppy is OK nor do I want the opposing manager to assume umpires' responsibilities. Jim / NYC

[cowbyfan1]

I have not had a problem really but I have them tuck in shirts that are hanging when they are at bat because it does give them an unfair advantage in the HBP department. Then it also gives the neat appearance.

My only arguement against the tucked in shirts (if I thought it was a no biggy)is as I recall back in the 80's (maybe late 70's), didn't the Chicago White Sox wear uniforms where the shirts hung out??? Or were they just so bad looking that it looked like they did???

[DownTownTonyBrown]

This isn't a vote.

Yes, Uniforms are meant to be worn properly - and that means shirt-tails in and hats with the bill in front. Coaches too.

That's really not the issue of a batter with his shirt-tails hanging between him and the plate/pitch.

For anyone that has knowledge of game management skills you know that you have much better luck ASKING for compliance rather than TELLING/ORDERING compliance.

ASK the player to tuck his shirt in. And do it in a method and with a tone of voice that inspires him to comply. Take the attitude of Hey, you probably didn't even know your shirt was out but "Will you tuck your shirt in for me?" If necessary say the first part of that to yourself and then vocalize the question part to the player.

Now for the real reason that we want batter's shirts tucked-in (I would never ask any other player - besides a pitcher, to tuck their shirt in. It's not a booger I want to pick and it has absolutely no effect on the game if the right fielder and the shortstop have their shirt-tails out.)....

The batter needs to have his shirt tucked in so he does not get UNWARRANTEDLY Hit By the Pitch - batter lift his arms and a pitch that's 8 inches aways from his body, hits his shirt. Coaches teach this kind of crap. It's your responsibility to stop it before it happens. (Rules: everyone plays within the same latitude of the rules. And you as an umpire establish that latitude. Do you want EVERONE to get HBP with a ball that is 8 inches away from the batter?)

The pitcher needs to have his shirt tucked-in so the batter can distiguish the ball location as soon as possible during the delivery. It is distracting for a batter to have a shirt tail flapping around with the pitcher's motion and with the wind and then have the ball suddenly appear from behind that distraction.

Again, ask the pitcher to tuck-in his shirt for you. Present your request as non-imperative (even though it is imperative/required) and make it as personal favor for you.

For a player to resist a personal, reasonable request is probably a bigger effrontery to the umpire than saying "show me the rule."

Just my opinion, Tony

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Jul 31st, 2003 at 04:10 PM]

[Jerry]

It's really much simpler than what everyone is making it.

On offense, a HBP is defined as a pitch striking the person or clothing. Obviously, a batter with an untucked shirt has a tremendous advantage over the defense. Same goes for an "untucked" pocket on his pants.

On Defense, all participants must be dresssed alike. If they ALL choose to look like "grunges", they're showing no respect for the sport . . . and attempting to show up their opponents in an "unsportsmanlike conduct".

Where's the "brain surgery" and "rocket science" in the solution?

At the "Munchkin" level, let 'em protest your decision! Show me a league anywhere in the world that allows its players to dress as they darn well please. (The "naked baseball league; maybe.)
Jerry

[Ump20]

Originally posted by Jerry
It's really much simpler than what everyone is making it.

On offense, a HBP is defined as a pitch striking the person or clothing. Obviously, a batter with an untucked shirt has a tremendous advantage over the defense. Same goes for an "untucked" pocket on his pants.

On Defense, all participants must be dresssed alike. If they ALL choose to look like "grunges", they're showing no respect for the sport . . . and attempting to show up their opponents in an "unsportsmanlike conduct".

Where's the "brain surgery" and "rocket science" in the solution?

At the "Munchkin" level, let 'em protest your decision! Show me a league anywhere in the world that allows its players to dress as they darn well please. (The "naked baseball league; maybe.)
Jerry

I think it is kind of funny that each poster seems to find an issue in the previous post. I don't sense there is that much disagreement here. Some might bring up the issue at a pre-game. I usually would not. Of course if they look like grunges before we even get started then a comment may be most appropriate. Some umpires may be bit tougher than others and might tell the on-deck batter or better yet Ask him to adjust his tails. I think that is better than waiting till he gets to the plate. Even saves time. No one seems too concerned with the fielders (except hats turned backwards) but will ask the pitcher to tuck in his shirt. I just would try to avoid upsetting the rhythm of the game. The way the whole thread started was

Originally posted by GerryBlue
Player comes to the plate with his shirt hanging out. I say tuck it in. He says "Show me the rule." I address the manager and he takes care of things. But the truth is, what is the rule reference? I know he would gain an unfair advantage over the pitcher when it comes to a possible hit batsman but is there anything black & white on this.

I think we have all encountered players if not teams that choose to be argumentative but we can accomplish more with honey than vinegar so I recommend we follow the advise of an earlier poster who suggested we just ask the player. In closing and perhaps ending the discussion I have never had a player ask what rule covers this and most of the players on fields have looked at least as good as my partner. Note though that I have at times umpired with scarlet ball bags from +POS. Jim/NYC