Help on rules interpretation
 

High-school JV game with veteran officials. One out, runner on second base. Batter lines out to centerfield, runner gets caught up the line on his way to third. Throw from CF is low and off line to second base. 2B leaves bag, traps ball and secures it, then takes ball out of his glove (not sure why), and comes back to tag the bag with his glove, beating the runner. Base umpire called runner safe and said that glove was not an extension of the baseball. I looked this situation up on some other umpire sites and saw interpretations that were 180 degrees apart. Too late now, obviously, but I'm interested to know. Citations, please.

"Veterans" working JV huh?

As long as the glove was properly worn, and the ball firmly secured in his hand, the runner should be out on appeal.

I'm not going to look it up, but it's the same logic at the first baseman's foot tagging 1B when the batter-runner grounds out to F6.

Those "veteran" umpires, if this story is exactly as you describe it, need to spend some time in the rule book and quit making up rules.

Yup. I should qualify--veteran HS varsity-level officials. Your thoughts on the logic of it are exactly as mine were, but he sold the call and it was snowing at the time, so I didn't pursue it.

Citation: Fed 8-4-2(i)

Thanks Bluehair

Well if it is snowing, and your a veteran umpire and make a call of safe and I am your assignor, your next game is Freshmen Ball.

Force Out?
 

In the OP, is the runner trying to get back to the bag because he didn't tag up, thus making it a force out?

Because on a play which requires the runner to be tagged, touching a runner with the glove and the ball in the other hand does not lead to an out. The ball must be in the glove if the glove is used to tag him.

From NFHS Rules By Topic (pg 85) "The tag must include the ball. If the ball isn't in the glove, the glove touching the runner has no effect."

Repeat after me 10 times:

It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out
It is not a Force Out

Veteran coach--or a quick study.

Please explain one scenario (any one will do) in baseball where a runner can be forced back to a bag.

(Hint: There are none.)

It's stuff like that is why this forum doesn't hold water anymore...think about it. He more that likely knows the right answer, but not the terminology.

after me ten times..................................:D

Now what do I do, coach?

Then he learned something. Isn't that why this place is here?

Best post of the thread.

This play (an appeal, not a force) does not require that the runner be tagged. The base can be tagged. When tagging a base the ball has to be held securely in the hand or glove and the base tagged with the body (includes gloves, shoes, hair, uniform, etc.)

There's a difference between "tagging a base" and "taggin a runner". For the appeal play, see 8-2-6.b

In OBR, you can go to 2.0-Tag. THe concpts are the same in all codes.

And, while the "force out" wording might not matter in this specific play, it can have some pretty significant differences in other plays -- that's why the focus on the responses here. See for example, 8-2-6.h

I just know you have the knowledge, and experience to give a better and/or detailed explanation than the one provided. That is what the place is here for. I guess I was wrong in expecting more from you.

I'm waiting for the day when the home team is down one with two outs in the bottom of the last with an R3. The batter bunts, F2 throws to F3 who catches the ball but loses his footing and falls down, but his long hair grazes the base just before the B/R gets there.

But he doesn't know the right answer. Not only was the terminology incorrect, his answer that the runner had to be tagged was ALSO incorrect.

To the OP - sorry for the wrong answers above. This should have been an out.

Whoa
 

you all need to relax. It's probably responses like these that keep a lot of newer guys from posting all of their questions, which is a shame.

I merely asked for a clarification to the OP because it wasn't immediately clear to me. Re-reading what i wrote, I can see how one might interpret my post as saying the runner needed to be tagged. This is NOT what i was saying. I'm well aware of the rules, as i said "Because on a play which requires the runner to be tagged..." I was not saying that on THAT play the runner had to be tagged.

I admit I used the wrong terminology, consider me properly flogged. :eek:

In my citation of the rule about tagging, I was trying to contrast the requirements for touching a base on an appeal play and the requirements for touching a runner on a tag play....where it certainly matters what hand the ball is in!

Thanks for the civil response Bob. All you other Francises need to lighten up.

Now THIS is the best post in this thread!!!!!

+1

Ok, fair enough - we misunderstood your intent... given your clarification, though ... what did you mean by: "is the runner trying to get back to the bag because he didn't tag up?" Why is that something you wanted to know to make the proper ruling? (IOW -- if you knew it was appeal play, why did that matter?)

ô!ô
 

Actually I just read this thread for the first time today.

Everything I read was pretty tame by internet umpire standards.

What people find is that internet umpires are anal in the vocabulary of umpiring.

There is little to no toleration for using incorrect argot of the umpire hobbyist that float the unending land of oz.

I think you taking offense was really quite funny.

T

No doubt. Just add "ing" to the description, "time play" and you will get a minimum of ten responses.

Time playing? Did I misunderstand you?:rolleyes:

ô!ô
 

I think you did misunderstand . . . I think he meant "timing play" or the post is nonsensical.

Forest NEVER makes nonsensical posts.

T

Stikes, Forest, call strikesssssssssss!

That doesn't make any sense to me - the only way you learn is to be able to debate the questions and rules - that's all a part of becoming a better umpire.

One of the most important things an umpire can do is to "use proper terminology" especially when you do have a play that requires you to "discuss" the rule with a coach etc.,

Learning to use the right terminology here on the boards should help you to remember that when you have a banger play and everyone is screaming and yelling for an explanation etc,

After this thread it should be easy to remember at least one thing - its not a force play. That can help especially a "newer" guy.

At least that's my take

Thanks
David

My apologies,

One time:

It is not a Force Out

Francises

Not to mention the fact that officials of all sports need to develop a bit of a thick skin. It's hard to imagine (a hypothetical) someone who gets his feelings hurt by volumeless, faceless strangers on the internet actually holding up under the pressure of a coach and fans yelling during a game.

Agree. It is very important to use the proper terminology in order to become a better umpire.

Terminology is important because certain situations can mean different things.

You da man brudah bob.

Exactly!

You will find some that pick more nits than a father/son monkey team that know they're being filmed by National Geographic.