2013 Ejection Thread

[scarolinablue]

I'm quite comfortable with how I handled the situation. Thanks.

I was really only trying to start a fun thread about ejections, and the fact I had one my first game of the year.. Now I remember that this forum no place for fun, and even though none of you were at my game, several have an opinion on a situation that none observed yet have the "right" answer in handling. A reminder of why this forum is slowly dying as opposed to a few years ago - there is still some good stuff here that can be gleaned though, and that's why I come back from time to time.

I'm sorry, when a mouthy 16-year-old takes the effort to turn around and say, loudly enough for the stands to hear "are you kidding," he will get a response from me, and then for him to basically do it again even after being told, in a non-threatening, politically-correct, with-my-mask-still-on manner to sit down, and then turns around AGAIN and says "are you serious", he's gone. You can ignore it if you want - I'm not. What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line. To quote Barney Fife, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!"

As I said in the OP, YMMV.

Carry on.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I was really only trying to start a fun thread about ejections, and the fact I had one my first game of the year.

All due respect, SCB, I never even remotely came close to that conclusion from your OP. Like most others here, I thought you wanted our opinion on how you handled the situation.

FWIW, I haven't come close to an ejection in the two games I've umpired so far this year. Both were NCAA softball games, in 36-degree weather with intermittent snow. That's all we've had up here for now; high schools are just starting their scrimmage games.

I can't wait until I leave for my eventual retirement location in Charleston, SC...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I'm quite comfortable with how I handled the situation. Thanks.

That's really too bad. Feel free to never get better. YMMV.

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That's really too bad. Feel free to never get better. YMMV.

I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.

I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.

I find it incredible that many of you would give a kid not one, but TWO opportunities to openly question your called third strike. PERHAPS (and that's a stretch) I "baited" him, but I don't think so, given that his comments were loud enough for the stands to hear, but my reply was not. I've not found in FED rules where we are required to warn players, yet I did, albeit subtly and, in your opinion, a "baiting" manner. Since you weren't there, I'll go with my partner's opinion. You didn't hear the tone of voice he used, or the fact he turned around a SECOND time. Maybe he just rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't think so. I really just felt he was a little loud in questioning the call, and the fact he did it a second time crossed my line.

I don't look for ejections. This was my seventh that I recall in 11 years of FED ball. Three for malicious contact, two for fighting, and two for unsportsmanlike conduct toward an official - this was the first directed at me, the other, about three years ago, was directed at my partner containing the words "You" and a four-letter word with a colorful adverb preceding.

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.

I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.

I find it incredible that many of you would give a kid not one, but TWO opportunities to openly question your called third strike. PERHAPS (and that's a stretch) I "baited" him, but I don't think so, given that his comments were loud enough for the stands to hear, but my reply was not. I've not found in FED rules where we are required to warn players, yet I did, albeit subtly and, in your opinion, a "baiting" manner. Since you weren't there, I'll go with my partner's opinion. You didn't hear the tone of voice he used, or the fact he turned around a SECOND time. Maybe he just rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't think so. I really just felt he was a little loud in questioning the call, and the fact he did it a second time crossed my line.

I don't look for ejections. This was my seventh that I recall in 11 years of FED ball. Three for malicious contact, two for fighting, and two for unsportsmanlike conduct toward an official - this was the first directed at me, the other, about three years ago, was directed at my partner containing the words "You" and a four-letter word with a colorful adverb preceding.

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

For me, the statement that rubs me the wrong way is "Go back to the bench unless you want to sit the rest of the game."

I'd stick with "it was a strike" or "it had the plate" or something along those lines. Or, just "enough".

Once he comes back, I don't have a problem with the ejection.

And, for your later question, I give less rope.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.

I don't think anyone was sniping when they offered their take on your handling of the situation. You're an umpire, I know you have thicker skin than that..

I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.

I don't read one single person suggesting the ejection was not justified. It was the threat you issued before hand that many (self included) thought was not the best game management. IMHO (and, as you say, YMMV) - you're better off ignoring the first quote from the kid. If and when he turns around and says something aggressively toward you, you've got every right to let him sit down for the day. But if you chose to respond to his question, either just the facts "It was a strike" or "It caught the corner", or something more pointed like "That's enough" or "We're not going there" is fine - in my experience, the "don't do that again or I'll eject you" approach is ALWAYS bad.

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

Ok, I'll answer.

What you say he did the first time doesn't equate to back-talk in my book. Players don't like calls - it happens. One line, especially while walking away, is almost always best ignored unless it's profane or personal. Turning back toward you is when this kid crossed the line. Someone WAY better than me, long ago, told me to use the 3 P's, and we've seen it here numerous times. Profane, Prolonged, or Personal - that's where the player cannot go. To try to answer you question ... one kid, disagreeing with one call (even loudly) while walking away from me is nothing. 2nd kid does the same thing? I'm probably asking the coach to get his players comments reeled in. Or ... first kid stops and turns back to say more - "That's enough" .

... and to answer some of the other commentary in this thread, "That's enough" is enough. Using the word Warning makes it obvious and clear, but if a coach or player doesn't understand that "that's enough" IS a warning, he deserves his ejection when he keeps going.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

First of all, you are correct that none of us were present for your game and did not hear how loud the player's remarks were or can we know his or any other players actions for your game. We can only rely on information you provided.

This is also the second time you have mentioned many players spouting off. Was the player ejected the straw that broke the camels back? If that is the case, I can understand what seemed like to me a short fuse here, for the last player. We have all been there and done that. Yes you should have had the coach handle it but, for some reason it wasn't this time and S**T Happens.

You believe it was a good ejection, so be it.

[DG]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

For your situation I would have given a hard stare on the first comment and said nothing. If he turned again with another comment, as he did, I would then toss him without saying anything. He does not deserve an explanation and unless he is stupid he knows what got him tossed, and so does the coach.

Where do I draw the line? If he turned the first time and said "are you ****tin me", he would be gone.

If you do this with the first who spouts off, there will not be a second, third or fourth, unless the whole team and the coach is stupid.

[RPatrino]

There is really no line for me to draw on these kind of situations. A player or coach who mutters under his breath, I ignore. Nobody but the participant and I know what is going on. Once a player turns around, then everyone knows he is directing comments toward the official, and odds are the comments are not positive. If we don't react to that immediately, we lose all credibility, IMHO.

There was one coach who I really didn't get along with at all, but I never ejected him, because he was a smart guy and never got himself into a corner where I was left with ejection as my only option. One game during a pitching change, I was on the line noting the changes and he was facing me and we had a very intense, but quiet conversation. Nobody knew what was being discussed, it looked like a routine pitching change. Only he and I knew we were exchanging 'pleasantries'.

[scarolinablue]

Thanks for the most recent feedback, gents. Time to move on!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Thanks for the most recent feedback, gents. Time to move on!

LOL.

So much for "genuinely".

[dinoian]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I was really only trying to start a fun thread about ejections, and the fact I had one my first game of the year..

Figure on that note, I'd post about my only two ejections that I gave when umpiring Little League. This was a 10-11 year olds league, and at the time I was doing about 6-8 games a week for the LL which had about 40 teams in it across all divisions, so all the coaches knew me, and at that point I had earned their respect. One of the last regular season games, kid strikes out swinging for the third out of the inning, goes back to the dugout and throws his helmet hard to the ground. Between innings, I go over and warm him somewhat discretely not to throw his equipment and let his coach know about the warning. His next at bat he strikes out again, and throws the bat (not that hard, but still a bit of a helicoptering) towards his third base dugout, and so I eject him. At this point the coach seems relieved but the kid's parent starts berating me for ejecting him saying it's not the kid's fault because he's autistic. I still feel that was a well deserved ejection, since on my field, if you're going to endanger the safety of others, you won't be there long.

Second one was that same year, though not as dangerous (and no grief from parents!) Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him that I won't tolerate that language on the field, he responds with "I don't give a f***", and so I toss him.

I think I'm pretty lucky to have gotten through 5 seasons of LL as a middle schooler/high schooler (had to stop since I went away for college) with only 2 ejections when doing about 50 games a year. I'll be looking to get into Junior High and HS ball sometime in the near future after a 5 year break and only doing intramural slow pitch softball in the meantime. Any tips from the veterans out there on getting back into it/transitioning to a higher level?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by dinoian

Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him...

I don't do Little League, but I can't imagine not immediately dumping a 12 year-old (or younger) for a "loud" F-bomb. I will dump a HS kid for that.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by dinoian

Figure on that note, I'd post about my only two ejections that I gave when umpiring Little League. This was a 10-11 year olds league, and at the time I was doing about 6-8 games a week for the LL which had about 40 teams in it across all divisions, so all the coaches knew me, and at that point I had earned their respect. One of the last regular season games, kid strikes out swinging for the third out of the inning, goes back to the dugout and throws his helmet hard to the ground. Between innings, I go over and warm him somewhat discretely not to throw his equipment and let his coach know about the warning. His next at bat he strikes out again, and throws the bat (not that hard, but still a bit of a helicoptering) towards his third base dugout, and so I eject him. At this point the coach seems relieved but the kid's parent starts berating me for ejecting him saying it's not the kid's fault because he's autistic. I still feel that was a well deserved ejection, since on my field, if you're going to endanger the safety of others, you won't be there long.

Second one was that same year, though not as dangerous (and no grief from parents!) Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him that I won't tolerate that language on the field, he responds with "I don't give a f***", and so I toss him.

I think I'm pretty lucky to have gotten through 5 seasons of LL as a middle schooler/high schooler (had to stop since I went away for college) with only 2 ejections when doing about 50 games a year. I'll be looking to get into Junior High and HS ball sometime in the near future after a 5 year break and only doing intramural slow pitch softball in the meantime. Any tips from the veterans out there on getting back into it/transitioning to a higher level?

Go to a clinic and be seen. Work scrimmages at the level you want to be at.