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-   -   2013 Ejection Thread (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/94254-2013-ejection-thread.html)

bob jenkins Thu Mar 07, 2013 05:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883552)
I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.

I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.

I find it incredible that many of you would give a kid not one, but TWO opportunities to openly question your called third strike. PERHAPS (and that's a stretch) I "baited" him, but I don't think so, given that his comments were loud enough for the stands to hear, but my reply was not. I've not found in FED rules where we are required to warn players, yet I did, albeit subtly and, in your opinion, a "baiting" manner. Since you weren't there, I'll go with my partner's opinion. You didn't hear the tone of voice he used, or the fact he turned around a SECOND time. Maybe he just rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't think so. I really just felt he was a little loud in questioning the call, and the fact he did it a second time crossed my line.

I don't look for ejections. This was my seventh that I recall in 11 years of FED ball. Three for malicious contact, two for fighting, and two for unsportsmanlike conduct toward an official - this was the first directed at me, the other, about three years ago, was directed at my partner containing the words "You" and a four-letter word with a colorful adverb preceding.

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.
For me, the statement that rubs me the wrong way is "Go back to the bench unless you want to sit the rest of the game."

I'd stick with "it was a strike" or "it had the plate" or something along those lines. Or, just "enough".

Once he comes back, I don't have a problem with the ejection.

And, for your later question, I give less rope.

MD Longhorn Thu Mar 07, 2013 05:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883552)
I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.
I don't think anyone was sniping when they offered their take on your handling of the situation. You're an umpire, I know you have thicker skin than that..

Quote:
I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.
I don't read one single person suggesting the ejection was not justified. It was the threat you issued before hand that many (self included) thought was not the best game management. IMHO (and, as you say, YMMV) - you're better off ignoring the first quote from the kid. If and when he turns around and says something aggressively toward you, you've got every right to let him sit down for the day. But if you chose to respond to his question, either just the facts "It was a strike" or "It caught the corner", or something more pointed like "That's enough" or "We're not going there" is fine - in my experience, the "don't do that again or I'll eject you" approach is ALWAYS bad.

Quote:
Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.
Ok, I'll answer.

What you say he did the first time doesn't equate to back-talk in my book. Players don't like calls - it happens. One line, especially while walking away, is almost always best ignored unless it's profane or personal. Turning back toward you is when this kid crossed the line. Someone WAY better than me, long ago, told me to use the 3 P's, and we've seen it here numerous times. Profane, Prolonged, or Personal - that's where the player cannot go. To try to answer you question ... one kid, disagreeing with one call (even loudly) while walking away from me is nothing. 2nd kid does the same thing? I'm probably asking the coach to get his players comments reeled in. Or ... first kid stops and turns back to say more - "That's enough" .

... and to answer some of the other commentary in this thread, "That's enough" is enough. Using the word Warning makes it obvious and clear, but if a coach or player doesn't understand that "that's enough" IS a warning, he deserves his ejection when he keeps going.

jicecone Thu Mar 07, 2013 07:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883552)
Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.
First of all, you are correct that none of us were present for your game and did not hear how loud the player's remarks were or can we know his or any other players actions for your game. We can only rely on information you provided.

This is also the second time you have mentioned many players spouting off. Was the player ejected the straw that broke the camels back? If that is the case, I can understand what seemed like to me a short fuse here, for the last player. We have all been there and done that. Yes you should have had the coach handle it but, for some reason it wasn't this time and S**T Happens.

You believe it was a good ejection, so be it.

DG Thu Mar 07, 2013 09:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883552)
Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.
For your situation I would have given a hard stare on the first comment and said nothing. If he turned again with another comment, as he did, I would then toss him without saying anything. He does not deserve an explanation and unless he is stupid he knows what got him tossed, and so does the coach.

Where do I draw the line? If he turned the first time and said "are you ****tin me", he would be gone.

If you do this with the first who spouts off, there will not be a second, third or fourth, unless the whole team and the coach is stupid.

RPatrino Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:03pm
There is really no line for me to draw on these kind of situations. A player or coach who mutters under his breath, I ignore. Nobody but the participant and I know what is going on. Once a player turns around, then everyone knows he is directing comments toward the official, and odds are the comments are not positive. If we don't react to that immediately, we lose all credibility, IMHO.

There was one coach who I really didn't get along with at all, but I never ejected him, because he was a smart guy and never got himself into a corner where I was left with ejection as my only option. One game during a pitching change, I was on the line noting the changes and he was facing me and we had a very intense, but quiet conversation. Nobody knew what was being discussed, it looked like a routine pitching change. Only he and I knew we were exchanging 'pleasantries'.

scarolinablue Fri Mar 08, 2013 09:18am
Thanks for the most recent feedback, gents. Time to move on!

MD Longhorn Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883661)
Thanks for the most recent feedback, gents. Time to move on!
LOL.

So much for "genuinely".

scarolinablue Fri Mar 08, 2013 05:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 883723)
LOL.

So much for "genuinely".
I got 5 pretty good replies, of which I genuinely did appreciate, and took the time to say thanks. Obviously YMMV, and does.

IowaMike Sun Mar 10, 2013 05:05pm
This forum really kills me sometimes. Nobody treats umpires worse than other umpires. Everyone handles things a little differently as we all have different personalities. As much as some umpires try, we can't all be turned into easily replicated clones of each other. Sounds like a solid ejection to me; I may not have handled it exactly like the OP but by no means did he screw it up. Guys always seem to be chomping at the bit to assert their superiority in here; no shortage of egos in umpiring.

As far as the discussion about saying "that's enough" not qualifying as a warning, that's one of the most laughable and ridiculous things I've ever heard as an umpire. I was a high school umpire first, then spent some time as a high school baseball coach, and have been back umpiring for the last five years. I never argued with umpires as a coach, but if one of them told me "that's enough" I would know exactly what he meant and that it was a warning. I'm friends with several coaches and have talked with them about their perceptions of umpires and umpiring in general. One coach told me he knew it was time to shut up when an umpire gave him the stare down with the mask still on and didn't say a word. I've never, ever had a baseball coach continue to complain or argue after being told "that's enough" so I'm pretty sure they understand the meaning. I've also never had to eject a coach or player in 12 years of umpiring. Part of that is probably luck, but a lot of it is also because I address unsporting behavior when it appears and don't let it snowball.

I'm far from the best umpire in the world, and knowing that helps me improve. I am glad I work with a regular partner now though because umpires (and basketball officials too) stab each other in the back far too much. There's a difference between confidence and arrogance.

jicecone Sun Mar 10, 2013 09:36pm
Mike, couldn't agree with you more but, if words on a forum are going to get an umpire in a tizzy then, they need to get out of the profession. Having a Big EGO is a requirement for doing a good job and controlling a contest but, knowing when to use it to your advantage is a fine line of understanding.

I would venture to say that some of the best umpires around are on this forum, because they know that you never stop learning and communication with your peers, is a direct line to improving.

Enjoy

Manny A Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 884072)
mike, couldn't agree with you more but, if words on a forum are going to get an umpire in a tizzy then, they need to get out of the profession. Having a big ego is a requirement for doing a good job and controlling a contest but, knowing when to use it to your advantage is a fine line of understanding.

I would venture to say that some of the best umpires around are on this forum, because they know that you never stop learning and communication with your peers, is a direct line to improving.

Enjoy
+1

IowaMike Mon Mar 11, 2013 06:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 884072)
Mike, couldn't agree with you more but, if words on a forum are going to get an umpire in a tizzy then, they need to get out of the profession. Having a Big EGO is a requirement for doing a good job and controlling a contest but, knowing when to use it to your advantage is a fine line of understanding.

I would venture to say that some of the best umpires around are on this forum, because they know that you never stop learning and communication with your peers, is a direct line to improving.

Enjoy
I agree with your point, you do need a healthy ego to be a strong umpire as well as a thick skin, but as I said there is a difference between arrogance and confidence. I just think we tend to tear each other down more than build each other up and try to make the umpiring in our area better as a whole. Just my two cents.

dinoian Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarolinablue (Post 883082)
I was really only trying to start a fun thread about ejections, and the fact I had one my first game of the year..
Figure on that note, I'd post about my only two ejections that I gave when umpiring Little League. This was a 10-11 year olds league, and at the time I was doing about 6-8 games a week for the LL which had about 40 teams in it across all divisions, so all the coaches knew me, and at that point I had earned their respect. One of the last regular season games, kid strikes out swinging for the third out of the inning, goes back to the dugout and throws his helmet hard to the ground. Between innings, I go over and warm him somewhat discretely not to throw his equipment and let his coach know about the warning. His next at bat he strikes out again, and throws the bat (not that hard, but still a bit of a helicoptering) towards his third base dugout, and so I eject him. At this point the coach seems relieved but the kid's parent starts berating me for ejecting him saying it's not the kid's fault because he's autistic. I still feel that was a well deserved ejection, since on my field, if you're going to endanger the safety of others, you won't be there long.

Second one was that same year, though not as dangerous (and no grief from parents!) Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him that I won't tolerate that language on the field, he responds with "I don't give a f***", and so I toss him.

I think I'm pretty lucky to have gotten through 5 seasons of LL as a middle schooler/high schooler (had to stop since I went away for college) with only 2 ejections when doing about 50 games a year. I'll be looking to get into Junior High and HS ball sometime in the near future after a 5 year break and only doing intramural slow pitch softball in the meantime. Any tips from the veterans out there on getting back into it/transitioning to a higher level?

dash_riprock Tue Mar 12, 2013 08:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinoian (Post 884486)
Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him...
I don't do Little League, but I can't imagine not immediately dumping a 12 year-old (or younger) for a "loud" F-bomb. I will dump a HS kid for that.

zm1283 Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinoian (Post 884486)
Figure on that note, I'd post about my only two ejections that I gave when umpiring Little League. This was a 10-11 year olds league, and at the time I was doing about 6-8 games a week for the LL which had about 40 teams in it across all divisions, so all the coaches knew me, and at that point I had earned their respect. One of the last regular season games, kid strikes out swinging for the third out of the inning, goes back to the dugout and throws his helmet hard to the ground. Between innings, I go over and warm him somewhat discretely not to throw his equipment and let his coach know about the warning. His next at bat he strikes out again, and throws the bat (not that hard, but still a bit of a helicoptering) towards his third base dugout, and so I eject him. At this point the coach seems relieved but the kid's parent starts berating me for ejecting him saying it's not the kid's fault because he's autistic. I still feel that was a well deserved ejection, since on my field, if you're going to endanger the safety of others, you won't be there long.

Second one was that same year, though not as dangerous (and no grief from parents!) Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him that I won't tolerate that language on the field, he responds with "I don't give a f***", and so I toss him.

I think I'm pretty lucky to have gotten through 5 seasons of LL as a middle schooler/high schooler (had to stop since I went away for college) with only 2 ejections when doing about 50 games a year. I'll be looking to get into Junior High and HS ball sometime in the near future after a 5 year break and only doing intramural slow pitch softball in the meantime. Any tips from the veterans out there on getting back into it/transitioning to a higher level?
Go to a clinic and be seen. Work scrimmages at the level you want to be at.


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