2013 Ejection Thread
 

First HS game of the season this past Friday night, first ejection of the season. Had to help a batter to the bench after he mouthed off a second time, after a warning, about a called third strike:

Me: "Strike three!", accompanied by standard punch out mechanic.
Player (after taking a couple of steps toward dugout, then turning around): "Are you kidding?!?"
Me: "No, it was strike three. Go back to the bench unless you want to sit the rest of the game."
Player: (after taking a couple more steps toward dugout, then turning around): "Are you serious?!?"
Me (after using standard ejection mechanic): "Yes, yes I am."

I thought I was more than equitable with the warning. YMMV.

Without taking my mask off my first response would be: "#22, that is enough."

If #22 decided to keep his mouth running without having his brain engaged, and I felt that he needed to spend the rest of the day on the bench, then my next move would be to take my mask off, walk in a non-confrontational manner to #22's HC and inform him that #22 had been ejected for (insert reason here) and that he will need to replace him the next time he comes up to bat or take the field on defense which ever comes first.

MTD, Sr.

Gentlemen, if you want to eject someone, it is not necessary to engage them in conversation that is barking out orders, which usually escalates the matter and can even be taking as Baiting someone.

Actually the best response here was "No response".

Don't answer this question. 95% of the time, the conversation ends here and the batter keeps walking. Should they stop and turn around - fine, deal with it... but imho you gave him too many words anyway.

If you are going to issue a warning, issue a warning using the word "warning" then take the time - as much as you need - to write it down. "That's enough" is not a warning. It is important to leave no doubt in the player/coach's mind that he has been officially (pun intended) warned.

Wasn't really looking for advice here...
 

I'm quite comfortable with how I handled the situation. Thanks.

I was really only trying to start a fun thread about ejections, and the fact I had one my first game of the year.. Now I remember that this forum no place for fun, and even though none of you were at my game, several have an opinion on a situation that none observed yet have the "right" answer in handling. A reminder of why this forum is slowly dying as opposed to a few years ago - there is still some good stuff here that can be gleaned though, and that's why I come back from time to time.

I'm sorry, when a mouthy 16-year-old takes the effort to turn around and say, loudly enough for the stands to hear "are you kidding," he will get a response from me, and then for him to basically do it again even after being told, in a non-threatening, politically-correct, with-my-mask-still-on manner to sit down, and then turns around AGAIN and says "are you serious", he's gone. You can ignore it if you want - I'm not. What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line. To quote Barney Fife, "Nip it! Nip it in the bud!"

As I said in the OP, YMMV.

Carry on.

ô!ô
 

When it is you against the world you should listen to the world.

Personally, I wouldn't hear the first one. At most, I'd turn and glare at the batter with my mask on.

And I'm not the kind of person who passes on things that need to be dealt with.

I don't have a problem with the ejection, I do not like the "Go back to the bench....." part. I usually get the coach involved at this point with something like "Coach, your batter seems to want to sit the rest of this game out, maybe you want to discuss the matter with him?".

Or it's a simple, "Coach, please take care of your player." I try to avoid anything that even resembles baiting.

This is where it's nice to have coaches who "get it."

Depending on how well you know him and assuming the game has been problem-free up to that point, a wordless look toward the third-base coach is sometimes all it takes to shut that kid up. Rare, but nice when it happens.

The good coaches appreciate being given an opportunity to save their player. Good umpires give them (within reason) that opportunity.

Without commenting on the other aspects, "that's enough" is absolutely a warning, and I'm pretty sure Jr. will respond accordingly next time he hears the phrase. Then again, I'm coming from the basketball side of things, where "that's enough" works pretty well.

Always good advice.

I am also quite comfortable handling the three ejections I have had in the past 200+ games and don't quite see the humor in bragging about them but, that is your choice.

But, you give us only half the story with no "smiley faces", and then we comment, and you decide to then tell the whole story...... What can I say!!!

Thank you for sharing.

Agreed. I have on multiple occasions explained an ejection with, "When I said 'Enough!' did you think I didn't mean it?"

If a pitcher throws at a batter's head and you want to warn both benches, do you say "that's enough?"

How about a pitcher who takes 40 seconds to deliver a pitch. Same thing?

When you say 'that's enough' do you record it as a warning?

I can understand using the phrase as a way to tell the coach he's getting to the edge, but I do not consider it an official warning. Neither does my assignor.

It's "a" warning. It's not the only warning.

When a center fielder one-hands a can of corn, do you yell, "THAT'S A CATCH! CATCH!!" the way you might when an infielder lays out and picks one two inches off the dirt?

To you it is, but maybe not to the coach. When he is asked if he was warned before he was ejected (and he likely will be), and the only thing you said to him was "that's enough," there is a good chance his answer will be no, and he will believe it to be true. The word warning is all over the rules (and every ejection report form I have ever seen). If you want to leave no doubt you are issuing a warning, use the word, and write down to whom, and when the warning was issued.

Not even close to being analogous. Let's keep it real.

That may be your experience; it has never been mine. Maybe those eastern coaches aren't as perceptive as coaches in other parts of the country.

When I say it (always "ENOUGH!"; never "That's enough!"), it's not as an aside; everybody hears it and better than 95% of the time I don't hear another word, so somebody understands it. Guys who say they don't recognize it as a warning are either inexperienced, stupid, or trying to play the umpire. A few guys have needed two tries to pick up on it, but I don't recall anyone ever needing three.

Not every situation calls for an official (i.e., recorded) warning. When one does, I give one. Some guy chirping about a pitch usually doesn't rise to that level.

I can recognize an appeal play even when nobody uses the word "appeal," too.

Agreed. We agree on this too. "ENOUGH!" would be an appropriate unofficial warning here.
Not analogous. Most appeals do not entail a verbal exchange. Warnings, official or otherwise, always do.

Let it go, Dash. We are old school and the newer guys don't want to listen. Let them find out the hard way, when they loose a protest, or look like total a$$es in a playoff game, or when their association tells them that because they are total f*ck up's, they are loosing their Varsity schedule.

I think you've got your schools mixed up. Those that believe that "That's enough" is a warning are from the old school. In the old school, if you didn't realize that "That's Enough" was a warning then you were stupid and probably deserved the EJ that you got.

New schools is specifically using the word "Warning" in your warning. Law-savey coach can hide behind the lack of the word "warning" to deny that he was warned and didn't deserve the EJ that he got.

You've gotta go new school if you want to work the big games...that's why sightngs of Lance Cokalinski are so rare.

OK that's enough, tone it down.

From the NCAA's online ejection/suspension report (all divisions):

"If a warning was issued, state how each warning was issued and the reaction of anyone warned."

Although it does not state specifically that the word "warning" is required, the NCAA is apparently sensitive to the possibility that the warned individual was unaware a warning had been issued to him. By using the word warning and stopping the game to write it down, that possibility is eliminated.

All due respect, SCB, I never even remotely came close to that conclusion from your OP. Like most others here, I thought you wanted our opinion on how you handled the situation.

FWIW, I haven't come close to an ejection in the two games I've umpired so far this year. Both were NCAA softball games, in 36-degree weather with intermittent snow. That's all we've had up here for now; high schools are just starting their scrimmage games.

I can't wait until I leave for my eventual retirement location in Charleston, SC... :p

Personal opinion. Bad ejection due to quick hook and lack of game management.

Tone what down?

All I'm reading is an exchange of philosophies. Who do you think is coming close to crossing the line, and why?

We're fine, it has been handled. Continue on.

That's really too bad. Feel free to never get better. YMMV.

I try to get better all the time. My goal this year is to be UIC for the state final - I've worked on a finals crew three of the past four seasons. That's why I occasionally participate and frequently read online forums - there's generally good stuff here when there isn't petty personal sniping going on.

I wasn't looking for advice on this one, but really do appreciate the input. My partner, who is the president of our association, said he'd have done the same thing. The state association upheld the ejection. Some of you will say that doesn't necessarily justify it, but it suits me.

I find it incredible that many of you would give a kid not one, but TWO opportunities to openly question your called third strike. PERHAPS (and that's a stretch) I "baited" him, but I don't think so, given that his comments were loud enough for the stands to hear, but my reply was not. I've not found in FED rules where we are required to warn players, yet I did, albeit subtly and, in your opinion, a "baiting" manner. Since you weren't there, I'll go with my partner's opinion. You didn't hear the tone of voice he used, or the fact he turned around a SECOND time. Maybe he just rubbed me the wrong way, but I don't think so. I really just felt he was a little loud in questioning the call, and the fact he did it a second time crossed my line.

I don't look for ejections. This was my seventh that I recall in 11 years of FED ball. Three for malicious contact, two for fighting, and two for unsportsmanlike conduct toward an official - this was the first directed at me, the other, about three years ago, was directed at my partner containing the words "You" and a four-letter word with a colorful adverb preceding.

Nobody answered this question: "What level of back talk do you accept when the second, third, and fourth players spout off? Where do you draw the line?" I genuinely would be interested to gather opinions here. I figure most of you will say tell the coach to handle it - that's my usual course of events if it's just a comment or two from the bench or a batter.

For me, the statement that rubs me the wrong way is "Go back to the bench unless you want to sit the rest of the game."

I'd stick with "it was a strike" or "it had the plate" or something along those lines. Or, just "enough".

Once he comes back, I don't have a problem with the ejection.

And, for your later question, I give less rope.

I don't think anyone was sniping when they offered their take on your handling of the situation. You're an umpire, I know you have thicker skin than that..

I don't read one single person suggesting the ejection was not justified. It was the threat you issued before hand that many (self included) thought was not the best game management. IMHO (and, as you say, YMMV) - you're better off ignoring the first quote from the kid. If and when he turns around and says something aggressively toward you, you've got every right to let him sit down for the day. But if you chose to respond to his question, either just the facts "It was a strike" or "It caught the corner", or something more pointed like "That's enough" or "We're not going there" is fine - in my experience, the "don't do that again or I'll eject you" approach is ALWAYS bad.

Ok, I'll answer.

What you say he did the first time doesn't equate to back-talk in my book. Players don't like calls - it happens. One line, especially while walking away, is almost always best ignored unless it's profane or personal. Turning back toward you is when this kid crossed the line. Someone WAY better than me, long ago, told me to use the 3 P's, and we've seen it here numerous times. Profane, Prolonged, or Personal - that's where the player cannot go. To try to answer you question ... one kid, disagreeing with one call (even loudly) while walking away from me is nothing. 2nd kid does the same thing? I'm probably asking the coach to get his players comments reeled in. Or ... first kid stops and turns back to say more - "That's enough" .

... and to answer some of the other commentary in this thread, "That's enough" is enough. Using the word Warning makes it obvious and clear, but if a coach or player doesn't understand that "that's enough" IS a warning, he deserves his ejection when he keeps going.

First of all, you are correct that none of us were present for your game and did not hear how loud the player's remarks were or can we know his or any other players actions for your game. We can only rely on information you provided.

This is also the second time you have mentioned many players spouting off. Was the player ejected the straw that broke the camels back? If that is the case, I can understand what seemed like to me a short fuse here, for the last player. We have all been there and done that. Yes you should have had the coach handle it but, for some reason it wasn't this time and S**T Happens.

You believe it was a good ejection, so be it.

For your situation I would have given a hard stare on the first comment and said nothing. If he turned again with another comment, as he did, I would then toss him without saying anything. He does not deserve an explanation and unless he is stupid he knows what got him tossed, and so does the coach.

Where do I draw the line? If he turned the first time and said "are you ****tin me", he would be gone.

If you do this with the first who spouts off, there will not be a second, third or fourth, unless the whole team and the coach is stupid.

There is really no line for me to draw on these kind of situations. A player or coach who mutters under his breath, I ignore. Nobody but the participant and I know what is going on. Once a player turns around, then everyone knows he is directing comments toward the official, and odds are the comments are not positive. If we don't react to that immediately, we lose all credibility, IMHO.

There was one coach who I really didn't get along with at all, but I never ejected him, because he was a smart guy and never got himself into a corner where I was left with ejection as my only option. One game during a pitching change, I was on the line noting the changes and he was facing me and we had a very intense, but quiet conversation. Nobody knew what was being discussed, it looked like a routine pitching change. Only he and I knew we were exchanging 'pleasantries'.

Thanks for the most recent feedback, gents. Time to move on!

LOL.

So much for "genuinely".

I got 5 pretty good replies, of which I genuinely did appreciate, and took the time to say thanks. Obviously YMMV, and does.

This forum really kills me sometimes. Nobody treats umpires worse than other umpires. Everyone handles things a little differently as we all have different personalities. As much as some umpires try, we can't all be turned into easily replicated clones of each other. Sounds like a solid ejection to me; I may not have handled it exactly like the OP but by no means did he screw it up. Guys always seem to be chomping at the bit to assert their superiority in here; no shortage of egos in umpiring.

As far as the discussion about saying "that's enough" not qualifying as a warning, that's one of the most laughable and ridiculous things I've ever heard as an umpire. I was a high school umpire first, then spent some time as a high school baseball coach, and have been back umpiring for the last five years. I never argued with umpires as a coach, but if one of them told me "that's enough" I would know exactly what he meant and that it was a warning. I'm friends with several coaches and have talked with them about their perceptions of umpires and umpiring in general. One coach told me he knew it was time to shut up when an umpire gave him the stare down with the mask still on and didn't say a word. I've never, ever had a baseball coach continue to complain or argue after being told "that's enough" so I'm pretty sure they understand the meaning. I've also never had to eject a coach or player in 12 years of umpiring. Part of that is probably luck, but a lot of it is also because I address unsporting behavior when it appears and don't let it snowball.

I'm far from the best umpire in the world, and knowing that helps me improve. I am glad I work with a regular partner now though because umpires (and basketball officials too) stab each other in the back far too much. There's a difference between confidence and arrogance.

Mike, couldn't agree with you more but, if words on a forum are going to get an umpire in a tizzy then, they need to get out of the profession. Having a Big EGO is a requirement for doing a good job and controlling a contest but, knowing when to use it to your advantage is a fine line of understanding.

I would venture to say that some of the best umpires around are on this forum, because they know that you never stop learning and communication with your peers, is a direct line to improving.

Enjoy

+1

I agree with your point, you do need a healthy ego to be a strong umpire as well as a thick skin, but as I said there is a difference between arrogance and confidence. I just think we tend to tear each other down more than build each other up and try to make the umpiring in our area better as a whole. Just my two cents.

Figure on that note, I'd post about my only two ejections that I gave when umpiring Little League. This was a 10-11 year olds league, and at the time I was doing about 6-8 games a week for the LL which had about 40 teams in it across all divisions, so all the coaches knew me, and at that point I had earned their respect. One of the last regular season games, kid strikes out swinging for the third out of the inning, goes back to the dugout and throws his helmet hard to the ground. Between innings, I go over and warm him somewhat discretely not to throw his equipment and let his coach know about the warning. His next at bat he strikes out again, and throws the bat (not that hard, but still a bit of a helicoptering) towards his third base dugout, and so I eject him. At this point the coach seems relieved but the kid's parent starts berating me for ejecting him saying it's not the kid's fault because he's autistic. I still feel that was a well deserved ejection, since on my field, if you're going to endanger the safety of others, you won't be there long.

Second one was that same year, though not as dangerous (and no grief from parents!) Kid grounds out for the third out in a close game and drops a loud F bomb directed at the situation/himself. I warn him that I won't tolerate that language on the field, he responds with "I don't give a f***", and so I toss him.

I think I'm pretty lucky to have gotten through 5 seasons of LL as a middle schooler/high schooler (had to stop since I went away for college) with only 2 ejections when doing about 50 games a year. I'll be looking to get into Junior High and HS ball sometime in the near future after a 5 year break and only doing intramural slow pitch softball in the meantime. Any tips from the veterans out there on getting back into it/transitioning to a higher level?

I don't do Little League, but I can't imagine not immediately dumping a 12 year-old (or younger) for a "loud" F-bomb. I will dump a HS kid for that.

Go to a clinic and be seen. Work scrimmages at the level you want to be at.

After they say you're kidding, I've always wanted to say, "Yeah, cmon back, I was only kidding, NOT!"