Balk?
 

I'm not a baseball ump and all I have to go on is what was discussed by the game announcers, so please be patient :p

White Sox vs Angels. Sox in the field, Angels have runners on 1st and 2nd.

Sox first basement is not holding the runner on 1st and is in front of the runner. They are both a good six or so feet off the bag.

Pitcher comes set and then throws toward 1st with no one covering. The 1st basemen catches the ball and makes a swipe tag and narrowly misses the runner. 1st base ump called a balk. Robin Ventura comes out of the Sox dugout, argues and gets tossed.

The announcers were surmising that you can't throw to an unoccupied bag, or some such discussion. There didn't appear to be any talk on the field about the pitchers foot, angle, or the move.

Thoughts? Rule? Announcers crazy? Not enough info? It was odd, as it was a close play.

Thanks.

Don't believe that it is detailed that way in the rulebook however the MLBUM says it is a balk if if it is thrown to F3, when he is not obviously trying to retire the runner.

I would put quotations marks if I was sure that was the exact words. I don't have the manual here. It is the umpires discretion how obvious or not it is.

From PBUC "and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner."

F3's deke was so good that Hickox (check spelling) did not think it was obvious. He might have been explaining to Ventura that F3 was playing off the bag. To me, there was a play on and no balk. To Hickox, there was no play on.

And, the throw was close enough to direct to 1B anyway.

You have to throw to 1B, not F3. If F3 is in the flight path he can catch it before it gets to 1B and that's OK. Ventura thought that part up when he played for the Mets.

But if F3 is back or in - that's not OK.

There is some leeway in that F3 has to be close enough to make a play on a runner going bask to the base. That pretty much means within reach. Having to lunge or make an exagerated swipe that even then misses pretty much says there wasn't a reasonable chance for a play.

Here's the video
Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CWS@LAA: Ventura gets ejected in the fourth inning - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Not a very good call UNLESS he balked the step. Heck, if he was balking the throw to the first baseman being off the bag it was downright lousy call in light of the fact that the video replay would seem to indicate the first baseman in fact tagged the runner out..:rolleyes:

JJ

Is it b/c F3 was not ready for the play? If he was already moving toward 1B when this happened, would it have been OK? Or, would he still have called the balk?

I agree he was not in position to make a play on the runner in the beginning simply b/c he wasn't ready. But, by the end of the throw, he was in my judgment. Definitely, a rare balk to be called.

The fact that F3 eventually tagged R1 is immaterial. Heck, F3 could be standing halfway towards home set up for the bunt. If F1 throws the ball to F3, and then F3 runs back to first base and eventually tags R1 out, that's still a balk.

From the MLBUM: "The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation."

I thought it was a clear balk. F3 caught the throw, and then had to take two or three steps before he was close enough to swipe a tag at R1.

Can't really see how much space there was between F3 and the runner, but it looked like a legitimate tag attempt to me. Also, the direction of the throw was very close to the base. I don't have a balk here.

"From the MLBUM: "The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation."

What part of this statement is not clear here.

Did he throw to the bag? NO

Was F3 obiviously trying to trying to retire the runner prior to receiving the ball? No

Text book call of rule interpretation. F3's location relative to the runner and the fact that he tagged him has no bearing on the determination of whether it was a balk or not.

It would have been a balk in NFHS and NCAA ball also.

Did anyone else notice the double stop?

Nobody cares in MLB

The Evans Balk Video demonstrates a case where F1 throws to F3 off the bag in attempt to make a play. The video shows F3 about 12 feet from the bag, he makes a move toward 1b and recieves the ball about 6' from the bag and makes the tag. It kind of looks like a QB leading a receiver who catches the ball in stride. The obvious difference between this illustration and the on here is that it was obvious that F3 was moving to the bag to receive a throw and make a play. Not so in this example, F3 was flatfooted and likely a bit surprised by the throw and made the best of it.

I've heard that. But I'm still surprised that it isn't called.

Rita

Does he have to hit a 15" strike zone or do you give him a little leeway?

How can a fielder retire a runner without the ball?
It has every bearing on whether F3 was making a legitimate tag attempt on the runner. Therefore, it has every bearing on whether or not F1 balked

Might have been a very good deke.

NCAA A.R. -9.3.c.1 If the pitcher throws to the first baseman who is playing off the base, a balk shall not be called if the fielder moves toward first base in an attempt to retire the runner.

FED give little guidance but you are wrong about NCAA.

FEd says "close enough to make a play", and it's umpire judgement.

Assuming we are all correct that the balk had to do with the throw and/or F3's position, I would not have had a balk in FED, based on the video I've seen.

How about NCAA, Bob? Balk or no balk?

JJ

I agree.

Not for that reason. Maybe for opening up to home before throwing to first.

I'd like to ask the umpire (or MLB): Why (for what reason) did you call the balk? Is that what was discussed with Ventura? Now that you've seen the replay, do you want the call back?

When I first saw the video, I thought it was borderline in a couple ways: maybe a move to home, maybe a borderline step balk, maybe throwing to F3 away from the base.

When I saw the discussion with Ventura, the discussion seemed to concern how close F3 had to be to the base to make a play.

It looks as if the Sox set up that play to take advantage of the wording of the MLBUM: F3 is neither "in front of" nor "behind the base," since he's playing off the base but even with it. So it would seem that this provision of MLBUM would not apply, and the play should be legal.

But if that's what's going on, I think it mistakes the UM comment for the rule. 8.05(c) requires that the pitcher step toward a base "before throwing to that base," and for 1B this provision is interpreted quite strictly as requiring throwing to the base.

The concept of "for the purpose of a play" is part of 8.05(d), not 8.05(c), and is not relevant to this call. F1 threw it to F3 away from the base, so it's a balk.

Freeze Frame at 1:52 - runner is OUT.

If you watch the video again, you'll see at roughly the 42-second mark that F1 starts to make his move to first while F3 is completely flat-footed. In fact, it appeared at the 1:55 mark that F3 was starting to get down into his fielding crouch before realizing what F1 wanted to do, and then adjusted to make the catch and start the chase of R1.

Bottom line: Judgment call all the way. And U1 judged that there was a violation of the MLBUM guidance. I agree.

I was going to ask Bob for a cite but I did my own legwork and don't know why I had not seen this before:

6.2.4 SITUATION J

With R1 on first base and two outs, F1 attempts to pick off R1. As F1 pivots to throw, he realizes that F3 is not on the base, but is in his normal defensive position. F1 completes the throw without interruption. The coach of the defensive team wants a balk called on F1.

RULING: As long as F3 is in the proximity of the base, F1 would not be guilty of a balk. Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.

Agreed ... and I believe that we have to assume that the fact that he DID make a legitimate play on the runner (in time for the out, no less), he was in fact "close enough" to make such a play.

I don't like this call.

Words such as "close enough to make a play","obviously", "proximity" = umpire judgement = someonelse's opinion=argument=ejection=forum discussion.

I'm not in MLB, obviously. But I DO care. The lax enforcement is gonna cause us problems in NF ball.

"NF ball"? What is "NF ball"?

MLB pitchers get away with technical violations of the balk rule if it is part of their routine move before getting set. I've seen pitchers lean forward and take a step toward home with their free foot when going from the stretch to the set (Musina), tap the ball repeatedly in and out of the glove (Rocker), and do all sorts of other minor fluctuations that really fools nobody.

It's really no different than the free-foot step that pitchers take to the side or even to the front of the rubber as they windup. 8.01 allows only a backward step with that foot. It's also no different than the hesitation some Asian pitchers take during their windup. They make these moves all the time, and if they did them with base runners, they would never get balked for them.

NF = National Federation (as in ... "of High Schools") You've been here a while - very surprised you haven't seen that abbreviation.

Then again Hickcox sold the hell out of an out tag at home after the ball sailed over the catcher's head, and went to the backstop.

Uh, no. Did you see how far he had to move to make the play?

Mike, don't let my Join Date fool you. As of until June or so, I hadn't visited this board for nearly five years. :)

I kinda figured that's what "NF" stood for. But since there are so many differences between OBR and FED when it comes to the balk rule, I didn't think what the big boys did on the pro field made much of an impact on high school umpires. ;)

Yes I did. Quite a ways... but how could one say that he was too far away to make a legitimate play when he did, in fact, make and ACTUAL play?

I think that's Matt's point. F3 couldn't make a play initially, which I believe is the thought behind the MLB guidance on balking this scenario. The moment F3 caught the ball, he still had to take two or three steps before he was close enough to make that actual play.

I mentioned an extreme example earlier, where F3 is playing way in for the bunt. If F1 throws to him, and then F3 has to run a significant distance to make the tag on R1, that would be a clear case where F3 wasn't initially positioned to make a play on R1.

On the play in question, F3 was much closer to R1 than in my example. But he still had to move an appreciable distance to make the tag attempt (which, if memory serves, is required to be considered a "play"). That's enough to judge that F3 wasn't in position to make a play when he received the ball.

Make UP Call?
 

Sheesh, those umpires erred. That was not a balk. Both are BAD calls and embarrassing to the profession.

Of course, I didn't hear the word protest come UP, so I guess I can't lean on the umpires too hard.

Here's a balk: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3287297

Nope. I only balk pitchers.:D

Rita

It's amazing how much this post comes across as completely clueless. There is quite a difference between throwing to first and throwing to any other base.

Clueless Ump?
 

In the umpires judgement, the throw was off line. In the umpires judgement, there was no play being made at first base.

The first baseman may play off the bag within the cutout. It also qualifies as within proximity of the base. The first baseman may play in front or beside the runner. The first baseman may stand still or flat footed before the throw to screen the runner and he may step back to first (2 steps) ahead of the runner. This is a legal pick off attempt. Get it right next time!

There's a reason for the ignore list.

He can't use that anymore. :eek: