3 and You're Out! - Page 4

dash_riprock · #46 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You lost me here. What do you mean the ball pops out? If you have the tag with the ball, why would it fall out afterwards and be your fault?

Peace

If the fielder raises his glove to show you the ball and the ball pops out, he just demonstrated he did not control the ball (which is what you need to determine before banging the runner out on the tag). If he is showing you the ball because you told him to do so, it is going to be perceived as being your fault.

Find the ball. It's not that hard. It takes a couple/three seconds under the worst of circumstances. Everyone knows what you are (properly) looking for.

JRutledge · #47 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If the fielder raises his glove to show you the ball and the ball pops out, he just demonstrated he did not control the ball (which is what you need to determine before banging the runner out on the tag). If he is showing you the ball because you told him to do so, it is going to be perceived as being your fault.

Never heard that explanation before, but I guess if you feel it is your fault, then you have the right to feel anyway you wish. I think if they cannot demonstrate they controlled the ball, that is on them. And it is not when they come up with the ball I am concerned with, it is the fact they do not have the ball at all I am mostly concerned with. Never had this as an issue and never considered it my fault if a fielder did not have the ball. Then again there are umpires that worry about things I clearly do not worry about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Find the ball. It's not that hard. It takes a couple/three seconds under the worst of circumstances. Everyone knows what you are (properly) looking for.

Once again I did not say it was hard to do or that it is required to ask every single time. Do not project everything based off of one situation we are discussing here. I just know that will not make a call without some demonstration that the fielder has the ball. They might be trying to make the next play and it is obvious they had the ball the entire time. Either way I am not calling out and the ball is 10 feet somewhere else. I am not going to feel responsibility because a player does not have the ball secured. Never felt that way ever in all my years of doing this umpiring thing.

Peace

dash_riprock · #48 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:05am

Never mind.

JRutledge · #49 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Never mind.

I agree, some people worry about things that others could give a damn about.

Peace

MD Longhorn · #50 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The potential problem is when the fielder raises his glove/mitt to show you the ball (after you've directed him to do so), and the ball pops out. Now you have a no-tag, and it's all your fault.

It is the umpire's job to find the ball, unassisted.

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

dash_riprock · #51 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please tell me you're not one of those "Voluntary release can last for 30 seconds" guys. Had a partner try to tell me (and enforce!) that if an outfielder catches a ball, then jogs in toward his dugout and the ball falls out near the mound, it wasn't a voluntary release, therefore not a catch.

The player makes a catch or tag, then loses the ball on subsequent action, it's still a catch/tag. "Voluntary release" is a guide on a banger, it doesn't last forever.

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Eastshire · #52 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

No, I'm not in that crowd (I doubt it's a crowd). Here's another example for your partner:

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

dash_riprock · #53 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire

But yet you're concerned that you can't sell an out if the ball falls out of a glove when it's opened to show you the ball several seconds after a tag?

I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

BigUmp56 · #54 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 06:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I have no problem selling whatever it is. But control of the ball must be demonstrated before, during and after the tag. How much after is judgement. I want to see secure possession of the ball after the tag. If he raises up his glove and the ball pops out, the possession was clearly not secure.

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

dash_riprock · #55 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 07:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

I think just the opposite.

Steven Tyler · #56 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 05, 2012, 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I think you're way overthinking this, Dash. I have no real clue how you wouldn't rule the fielder lifting the glove to show you the ball after a tag as a separate movement that would satisfy voluntary release.

Tim.

Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

BigUmp56 · #57 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2012, 01:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Nobody said anything about voluntary release. Try not to be so clueless next time.

Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

MD Longhorn · #58 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2012, 08:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

Don't quote the trolls.

Manny A · #59 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2012, 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

R2 stealing, line drive "caught" by F5. F5 takes 6 steps chasing the now retreating R2, dives for him and the ball pops out when he hits the ground (involuntary release). Is the batter out?

Yes. The ball popped out on the tag attempt, not on the catch attempt.

Or are you suggesting that there was no voluntary release after the catch?

Steven Tyler · #60 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 06, 2012, 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Scroll back up and read post #50 in this thread. Maybe this time you'll get it. And while you're at it, give a quick peek at the J/R and JEA and you'll see where the concept of voluntary release is appropo here.

I hear Sweet Baby Rays really helps with the taste of crow........

Tim.

Yes post #50 was an excellent example of what dash was stating. NOT!