Last Play of the Game Question
 

Tie game, bottom of the last inning. Bases loaded one out. Hit to the OF. Runner scores and batter tags first. Suppose the runners on first and second never touch second and third. As players are leaving, the defense tags second and third asking for a inning ending double play (after the runner scores and the batter tags first). What is the correct ruling?

OBR: appeal denied, game over.

FED: appeal granted, extra innings.

Thanks!

Why would this be denied OBR?

I think that it would be denied because of 4.09 (b):

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

appeal at 2nd granted. appeal at 3rd denied; after the appeal at 2nd was granted, the force on R2 was removed and he was not obligated to advance. Game over.

If they had appealed in the proper order (3rd, then 2nd), they'd have had an inning-ending DP and extra innings.

good point about the order of the tags. For the sake of conversation, I meant to say that they tagged third and then second.

Why are these being called appeals? As somebody pointed out, if done in the proper order, they are simply force outs, aren't they?

Not disputing what you say, but do you have a rule cite for FED?

Since this situation involves a batted ball ("hit to OF") not an award, the appeal plays at 2nd and 3rd are still valid in OBR. R1 must touch second and R2 must touch 3rd - the bases to which they have been forced respectively. If an appeal is made on each runner (irrespective of order in this case where the play is relaxed), both appeals will be upheld and no runs will score. Game continues. The same would be for FED.

If the batted ball is thrown in from the outfield directly to 2nd base for a force out (unrelaxed action), then the order of put outs will matter as the force of R2 has been removed. R2 will now have to be tagged, but more than likely, by the time that has happened, R3 will have scored. And also R2's failure to touch 3rd base in this case now is not a force out, so R3's run counts. Game over.

If instead the batted ball is thrown directly from the OF to 3rd base, it's a force out on R2; and then, the ball is thrown directly to 2nd base, it's a force out on R1 - double play all during unrelaxed action whereby the side is retired on force outs; consequently, R3's run does not count. Game continues.

This is how Jaksa/Roder interpret 4.09b and 7.04b

I think I did a bad job of wording my orignal question. How about this....

Bases Loaded, bottom of the last inning, tie game. OBR rules. Batter hits a ground ball to 3B. Defense turns what appears to be a 5-4 double play. However, the batter and runner on third are very fast. The run scores and the batter tags first before the out is recorded at 2B.

My interp of 4.09b is that the game was over before the out at second. The runs scores and the game is over. If the same thing had happened in the first inning, no runs scores. Am I wrong?

No, they are missed bases and that requires a proper appeal.

I found an old thread that addresses my question. A similiar play happened in a Padres/D-back game last year.

Padres withdraw protest over D-backs' walk-off | padres.com: News

Yes, you're wrong. The 3rd out was a force play, so no runs can score, same as any other inning. This is not a time play. Extra innings.

Speaking of extra innings (begin thread hijack), I had my first extras of the summer the other night. Home team was up 2-0 in the top of the last inning. 2 outs, R1, R2, and the batter hits a ball to short right, a clear single. Should have been maybe 1 run scored, and when the next batter grounded out, game over, right?

It was a clear single to everyone but F9. He dove for it, the ball hit the ground literally 15 feet away from him, bounced over him, and rolled to the wall. 2 runs in, BR to 3B, tie game, and (after the next batter grounded out and the home team did nothing in their half) we have extra innings.

To add insult to injury: F9 came up in the bottom of the inning. Before a 1-1 pitch, he raised his hand and stepped out of the box: but my partner did NOT grant time! Strike 2! He was steamed about that. When the next pitch nipped the outside corner, he threw his bat against the fence and ejected himself. Presumably not his best inning of baseball.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, with apologies for the hijack and thanks for the venting. :)

mbyron,

how is my play different than Padres/D-backs game that I posted above?

My initial post was assuming that the out at 3B was recorded before the out at 2B, so that both were force outs. The OP later clarified that this is the play he intended to post.

2012 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 18: In the bottom of the eighth inning, the score is tied, with the bases loaded and two outs. B6 draws a walk and runs and touches first base. B1 [sic: should be R1] trots in from third and touches home plate. B2 [sic], however, begins celebrating and never touches third base. RULING: All runners must legally touch the next base in advancing. If the defense legally appeals while at least one umpire is still on the field of play, B2 is declared out for the third out. Since this out would be a “force” out, no runs would score and the game would continue into the ninth inning. (8-2-1, 8-2-6j, 9-1-1a and d)

The MLB game involved a walk, where no advancing runner was liable to be put out. The rules require that the BR touch first and that (to score) R3 touch HP. At that point, the game is over: the other runners are not required to complete their award UNDER OBR.

Your play involved a batted ball with bases loaded, and the advancing runners were liable to be put out. The double play resulted in a 3rd out that was a force play. By rule, no runs can score.

Thanks. I agree with you for NFHS. But I still think that the run counts in OBR.

Also, can you help me with some terminology. Are "Fed" rules = NFHS rules?

I am not an ump. Just a coach who learns a lot by reading this board.

Yep. We commonly refer to NFHS rules as "FED" here.

Yes, FED = NFHS. Only in baseball (in my experience) do officials refer to NFHS rules as FED.

You're mistaken. The rule you cited was 4.09b, but that rule does not supersede 4.09a. No run can score when the third out of the inning is a force play. 4.09b simply specifies who must advance on a game ending play.

Others will be along presently to confirm this uncontroversial ruling, in case you don't believe me. And, good for you that you study the rules!

It wouldn't.

Per JEA:
"If the winning run is forced in as the result of a batted ball, all runners including the batter-runner are obligated to touch their next bases. The BR must advance to and touch 1st base, and any other runner forced must advance to and touch his next base. If any such forced runner fails to do so, a force out appeal play is in order; and if it is sustained for the third out, no run shall count since the third out was, in effect, a force out. If this appeal force out is not the third out, the runner shall be declared out but the winning run scores."

Not what 4.09b says.

Edited to add: also not the way MLB calls it, correctly, according to 4.09b. The video posted in post 14 is an example:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...rtnerId=rss_sd

That's a walk, not a batted ball, but the same rule applies (and is ruled the same).

If we did not have that interp then with bases loaded and 2 outs on a ground ball to let's say the SS, R1 and R2 could peel off cheering while the BR crosses 1B and R3 scored.

They can do whatever they want. With 2 outs, the play will be at 1B. If they interfere, that will be the third out.

With R1 abd two outs and a GB to SS the play will likely be to 2B.

Might be. Your quibble kinda misses the point.

So, if the SS throws to 2B, do you have an out or tell everyone game over because R1 did not have to complete his base running responsibility? (edited to correct R2 to R1)

Failure to advance?
 

Some play for fun. Some play to win. Time to backtrack to clean up the spin.

Failing to advance on Base hit will lead to force outs, appeals in proper order, possibly no runs and extra innings, 4.09a.

Walk will lead to winning run, ballgame, OBR 4.09b. Except FED 2012 interp 18 which is not an appeal play. Yeah, I know it says legal appeal, but the ruling will not be granted. bTw, it's not a force out either. Haha, who wrote that?

Learn one thing, told another.

This thread offers the reader incorrect rulings, starting with post #2. It seems to me that the posts by mbyron are inconsistent and confusing.

Here's what I believe to be the correct (and non-controversial) interpretation of the rules for bases loaded, bottom of the potential last inning.

All rule sets treat a batted ball in the same way, with no difference between OBR and FED/NCAA. All three rule sets make no distinction between the potential last inning and any other inning. All runners are subject to force outs and appeals.

OBR treats awards different to NCAA/FED, as detailed in 4.09(b).

In posts #15, #18, and #21, mbyron seems to be agreeing with the above synopsis. But in post #17, he seems to be justifying his wrong answer in #2 (which says OBR and FED rules are different for a batted ball) with a reference to the order of the appeals and citing a caseplay involving an award. In #23, he asserts that the principle and rule is the same for batted balls and awards, seemingly disagreeing with the JEA on this point. Finally, he says in post #25 that on a batted ball R1 and R2 can do whatever they want.

So, will the real mbyron please stand up? :)

Regarding my bolded part of this post, has this changed?

My latest BRD ruling #12 says order of appeals on forced bases matter. It quotes FED back in 2003 and PBUC in 2000. My 2010 WUM says the order doesn't matter if the force existed at the time of miss. 8.4.1.c. in the WUM.

My understanding (via Jacksa/Roder during relaxed action) is that if the force was in place when the missed base occurred, then the order doesn't matter as long as it's the 3rd out in order to negate any run(s) scored. I believe the example Jacksa/Roder gives has to do with R1 and R3, 1 out. Batter hits a double but misses 1st base. R1 missed second on the way to scoring. Defense starts the appeal of BR missing 1st base (upheld - out number 2) and then appeals R1 missing 2nd (upheld - out number 3, still considered a force out even though BR has been declared out for missing 1st base). Therefore, R3's run does not count.

HOWEVER, if R1 had missed 3rd base on his way to scoring and the appeals took place, then the order would matter. If the Defense starts the appeal with the BR missing 1st, then that would be the 2nd out (NOT the 3rd!), and then it appeals R1 missing 3rd base (upheld, 3rd out - not a force out). Therefore, R3's run counts.

IF the Defense starts the appeal with R1 missing 3rd, then that's the 2nd out. Then it appeals the BR missing 1st base (upheld - thus the 3rd out). Therefore, R3's run does not count as the BR made the 3rd out before reaching 1st.

PBUC follows the same format and I'm sure the same is true for FED (though I will start looking through the rule/case books starting with your citation 8.4.1.c).

Edited: Your cite is from the WUM, not FED casebook. my mistake on that (as I have just read the Fed casebook 8.4.1 c and it has nothing to do with appeals!)

While the BRD cites Hopkins as saying that "When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in proper order.", the 2 plays given as examples are similar to your "However" play in that there is one miss of 1B and a non forced miss. The BRD rulings agree with what you say in this regard and the order does matter.
I probably read too much into the BRD Order of Appeals cite. Based on your JR and my WUM I agree with you that the order of appeals of multiple missed forced bases or forced and 1B does not matter.
Probably the only change is my new comprehension of the matter.

I would imagine Evans has the outs in the order they are called. At least that's what he explained to me on an unusual play that occurred.

The outs will always be in order. Whether the force play was in effect when the appeal occurred was at question. Cookies post cleared this up for me. Could you post the unusual play?

High fly ball to F7. Dugouts close to field. batter veers directly into dugout.

F7 misses ball. Runners take off from their base. Throw goes into F5 who touches base, and throws to F4 who also touches the base.

But batter was out for abandonment first, which then took off the force. Tags must be applied for outs.

I was somewhat lagging at HP looking for tag at 1B, and just happened to notice him over my shoulder.

It was summer league ball, crappy game, and no biggie.

Got a safe call at 3B, and out call at 2B. Led to some confusion, but it worked itself out in the end.

My understanding of 4.09(b), "...the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base," only applies to game ending situations when the defense really has no chance at preventing the winning run from scoring.

For example, the defense won't be able to prevent a BB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HB with bases loaded from scoring the winning run, or prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B. In these game ending situations, 4.09(b) does not require R1 or R2 to advance and touch the next base.

But starman's fact pattern does not describe a game ending situation. Therefore, 4.09(b) does not apply. The "exception" in 4.09(a) applies which states "...A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made... by any runner being forced out..." I don't think this is controversial. It's clear to me that the defense prevented the run from scoring (under 4.09(a)) by executing the double play (explained in starman's facts) to end the 1/2 inning and the game continues.

"...For example, the defense won't be able to...prevent a HR with bases loaded from scoring the winning run as long as (as worded in 4.09(b)) R3 and BR advance and touch home plate and 1B."

I believe a HR (a batted ball) out of the park still requires R1 & R2 to touch 2nd and 3rd respectively. Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case...

Quite right. 4.09(b) applies to "awarded" bases and not on a batted ball. My bad.

"Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case..."

This is true on batted ball but not on a base award. R3 and R1 get their base regardless of what R1 & R2 do and as soon as R1 & R3 touch, game over. Also, there couldn’t be a time play with bases loaded and the runners advance as the result of an awarded base.

"Also, if R1 or R2 should abandon his base path after either one has passed 2nd or 3rd respectively and either is called out before R3 crosses the plate (time play), then R3's run will not count. So R3 is not necessarily an automatic run in this case..."

This is true on batted ball but not on a base award.

True, a home run (with bases loaded) is a batted ball.