In working a 2-man umpiring crew under major league rules, is there ever a situation when the Base Umpire, upon request by the offense, should ask for help from the Plate Umpire when the call was clearly a judgment call of the responsibility of the Base Umpire? If so, when? For example, the Base Umpire is in B position with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. The pitcher throws in an attempt to pick off the runner at 3rd. Obviously, the base umpire needs to make a call (say “out” in this case) – however, if the offense asks the base umpire for “help” (that is, ask the Plate Umpire if he saw anything different), should the Base Umpire ask the Plate Umpire for “help?”

Two things first.

1. I can't imagine what the plate umpire would see differently.

2. I don't work the Big Show. At least that haven't called yet.

With those things in mind. I would say, "ABSOLUTELY NOT".

Warning! Warning! Warning!
 

The umpiring community is divided into three camps on this issue.

You will find one side feels that the admonition in the rule book to "get the call right" gives license to ask for help whenever you feel the need.

You will find another side that believes that there there are appropriate calls that can be appealed. (To them, this isn't one of them)

You will find a third group that feels that you make your call, you live or die with it. If you screwed it up, learn to do it better next time.

Then, of course you will find a number of hybrids who take a little from this, a little from that.

What you will not find is concensus.

I agree, GB. I based my comment on the facts given, that implied (at least to me), a normal pickoff attempt at 3B. With nothing more than a catch and tag.

Other situations, could very well lead to asking for help. But once again, not having officiated at that level , I could be just wearing out my keyboard.

Re: Warning! Warning! Warning!
 

I would agree with that Garth.

But, to answer the question, I know every umpire has personal preference, but in the play mentioned above, that's the BU's call and he needs to make the call.

I cannot think of anything that PU would be able to see that BU did not.

If I would have a BU ask for help, I would simply go out, listen to him, and then say, "its your call, you have to make it."

But simply to ask for help because the opposing coach or team asks for you to opens a door for all kind of problems later.

I agree there are times that we all might need to discuss a call, but this is not one of those times.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Warning! Warning! Warning!
 

In the situation cited it's very possible for R3 to be diving back to 3B on the outside of the base where it would be clear to PU that he touched or did not touch a base, or whether a swipe tag to the outside touched the runner. That may not be evident to BU when starting in B position on a pickoff at 3B.

If there is doubt in the BU's mind after his call that he may have blown it (he wasn't sure about the original call that belonged to him and that he felt forced to make), I'd not have a problem checking with PU regarding added information. BU should not be checking about issues dealing with the timing of tag itself---only whether the tag actually touched the runner, etc.........

There are flaws in the two-man system, and frequently your partner has superior angles depending on how the play develops.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Steve,
Why don't you just ask the 3rd Base Coach? He was standing right there and had the best view of all of you!

The ONLY reason a coach would ask you to ask your partner, is if the coach disagreed with your call!

And then what do we have? We've got one "judge" saying "safe" and we've got another one saying "out". Logic tells me we now need a 3-umpire crew on some judgement calls . . . just to get it "right".

What's next? Instant replay?

Jerry

Come on Jerry, We all know on those games being televised over REAL TV, the TV audience will be able to have instant voting for all plays. No Umpires and then all of the calls will be made perfect.

In fact even the coaches and players will get a chance to vote.

This will be called REAL BASEBALL and for $9.95/game you will be able to access this through you local cable TV that will pay Major League Baseball $100,000,000,000.00 for exclusive rights to this. And for an additional $100.00 you can be co-manager for the day. It will feature the ability to select the lineup and pitches. Im sure Gameboy and Sony and EAsports(just a few), will also contribute to this.

What a great idea! And I thought you had to make $25,000,000.00 a year with stock options to be able to think of something like this.

Also Players would be paid bonuses, per at bat or per pitch, with a sliding scale that depends upon the success of the at bat or pitch.Instant cash at the end of the inning.

PLAY BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jicecone:
We all "do the dance". You make a call, the coach questions the call, you ask your partner, you talk and argue a bit, we call go back to our spots, we talk about it again several plays later, the coaches question all of our calls from that point on, the game ends, we go home, we get paid . . . and we come back tomorrow to do it all again.

Gotta learn to dance.

Jerry

I had this situation last night. R3 Pickoff attempt by F2. Throw is on the outside of the sliding runner. I call out. Base coach says the ball was loose. I didn't see it because I was screened by the runner. I asked PU if the ball was loose, he said yes. I rule Safe on the drop. According to the PU after the game, the ball dropped out onto the ground as the tag was made but didn't go anywhere. F5 re-acquired the ball immediately and came up with it to show me. My partner is very experienced and I have great faith in him. If he tells me the ball was loose, I believe him.

"we get paid "

SHOW ME THE MONEY

Lets flip this around!!!!
 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Good points GB. Hers one I had to deal with...I as PU, 2 man, PONY Memorial day tourney(lotsa club teams). Bases loaded, Br lays one down, R3 is busting on the obvious "pitch". F1 fields bunt, F2 is square to third, I am FBL ext. Throw to F2 is on target(not much of throw), R3 slides into glove(w/ball) and spins F2 about 60 degrees clockwise. I am thinking out(mind you that F2 is now facing between 1st and second) Big dirt cloud.... F2 shows me ball in glove, I bang OUT. Crowd is screaming "drop", manager comes to me to ask for help..NO...BU wasn't even concerned with that play due to multiple runners.....found out later from a good friend working the score table, ball was knocked loose on the slide, picked up as if F2 had electro-magnet and metal ball. Runner was meat, F2 made a great play, I was screened, F2 sold the call....NO HELP..........

<i> Originally posted by sabattis </i>

<b> n working a 2-man umpiring crew under major league rules, is there ever a situation when the Base Umpire, upon request by the offense, should ask for help from the Plate Umpire when the call was clearly a judgment call of the responsibility of the Base Umpire? If so, when? For example, the Base Umpire is in B position with 2 outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. The pitcher throws in an attempt to pick off the runner at 3rd. Obviously, the base umpire needs to make a call (say “out” in this case) – however, if the offense asks the base umpire for “help” (that is, ask the Plate Umpire if he saw anything different), should the Base Umpire ask the Plate Umpire for “help?” </b>

A year or 2 ago Carl Childress (who doesn't post very much thse days) posted his infamous "FAB V" on which calls can be corrected and those that can't. I'm at work and don't have the list with me, but if you like send me a private E-mail and I will "resurrect" the list.

I found it Here's the list.

<i> The FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag </i>

As Garth mentioned, there is no Unamous concensus on this so my recommendation is:

Try all the methods and see for yourself. It's like trying to get a good plate stance. Experiment with them all and then decide which one works best for your.

In General, I do not think any one of us wants to get the call Wrong, however, there are times when we simply must "eat" the call and learn from it. Also, let's face it we are human and we will get some calls wrong.

From my experience, once you start changing calls or constantly looking for your partner to help you makes for a LOOOONG afternoon. Once a coach knows he has you rattled or unsure of yourself he / she will be all over you the ENTIRE game and on just about every close call he /she will want you to check with your partner.

Attend some mechanics training and learn to get into the best position possible which in a 2 Person system means sacrifice distance for angle.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Jun 20th, 2003 at 02:08 PM]

Pete,
Just to add to your excellent comments about receiving training and being in the right place at the right time:

We need to learn how to respond to coaches as well. Many times, a simple, "I had a great view, coach!" will suffice. (Even if you didn't have a great view.)

Another good one is, "I already know he (my partner)was looking at 3rd (or 1st or home or 2nd; doesn't matter); but I'll ask him anyhow." Then go pretend to talk it over and go with your original call anyhow. "Just like I thought, Coach. He had to look at 3rd (or 1st or home or 2nd). But he thinks I got it right also."

Amazing what a little BS can do.

Play ball! (The operative word here is "Play"!)

Jerry

Hi all,

Thanks for all the insight! I have umpired a few years, and my tendency is always to ask for help ONLY WHEN the call WAS MY RESPONSIBILTY, but I am not sure that my call was as good as can be. If I am certain, as a BU, I will not ask and so state (to eliminate the observations of others re: coaches always asking, having you rattled, etc.).

I guess my real concern is when I did ask the PU for help(because I wasn't sure I had the best view), his verbal response for all to hear was "it's your call." I would have preferred, and expected, a "private" conference between he and I so that I could either affirm or change my call as appropriate. I didn't see his response as affirming my authority.

Position B?
 

I'm surprized no one else said it....

WIth runners on 1st and 3rd what are you doing in position B? Position C is the correct mechanic.... of course that is beside the point of asking for help from your partner...

Then again, if you were closer to 3rd (in position C) you likely could have sold the call better and not been questioned.:D

<b>WIth runners on 1st and 3rd what are you doing in position B? Position C is the correct mechanic.... </b>

Really?

From the <i>Manual for the Two-Umpire System</i>, published by Umpire Development Program:

Section 7 "Runners on First and Third"

7.1 Positioning

"With runners on 1st and 3rd, the base umpire will position himself in exactly the same manner as with a runner on 1st base only. (see Section 3.1)"

Of course, Section 3.1 does an excellent job of defining position "B".

You should only ask for help if the coach requests it and you are 110% sure that your partner will go along with your call

Then why ask? :confused:
mick

According to the PBUC "Manual for the 2-Man Umpire System" (1991-9 copyright), Position B IS the correct position for 1st & 3rd - is there a newer manual that changed it?

Who's calling the game??
 

If this is your criteria then you'll be asking for help on every play.

Not in my world.

I'm the umpire, me and my partner are calling the game.

If I have a question about the call, then I will ask.

The only time I would listen to a coach is on a checked swing, but then I would have already asked anyway since if I have a question, I ask.

Don't let the coach umpire the game.

Thanks
David

Depnds
 

Positioning with R1/R3 depends on whose mechanics system you follw. FED uses C, the UDP uses B.

I use B. More things can happen over on the right side of the infield. The only benefit to C is that you can keep up the misguided myth that the runner on third is SO important that you should say close to him (corollary myth: in three man there should always be an umpire ahead of the lead runner).

Rich

<b>I guess it changed in 2000 since my 2001 manual says "B" . .</b>

My 90's something manual also says "B".

R3 alone? This summer if I'm on the grass I'm either in A or D (insert REAL big grin).

Just another opinion and question

O) I would not go to my partner after I made a call. I would go to him before I made the call. Just like play at 1st, bad throw and I am in B or C and it's a swipe tag or foot off the base. Ask for help - Did you see a tag, if dish say yes, bang him out. Do not call out and then ask for help. You be better off calling the wrong thing, because the next thing you'll be doing is ejecting a coach.

Q) Why weren't you in the C slot ??? you mentioned runners on 1st and 3rd and you were in the B slot. Is this a new mechanic. I've seen some guys doing this lately. I have always been taught, if there is any runner on 2nd or 3rd, always be in C. That runner is the most important as they are closest to scoring.

To DrC,

Re: O: I think you have to make a call before going to your partner. Easier to fix a wrong call than to have a myriad of things going on in a "continuation" situation that in and of themselves could create any number of bad scenarios with no call.

Re: Q: See previous replies about B vs. C, including mine.

Sorry - I missed the few posts that went about B vs C

I have to diagree with you about the no call vs immediate call. I am not talking about calling time, walkig to my partner and having a discussion. I'm talking about the same quick mechanic like "DID HE GO", I'M AT 3RD, or I'M GOING OUT".....
Something like, "Chris Do u have a tag.." Can be done quick and to the point. All I'm trying to say is you may loose
some integrity if you question yourself. That could be a killer earlier in the game, or God forbid early in the 1st game of a Doubleheader.

I understand what you're saying, however, it is quite possible that your partner wouldn't (maybe even shouldn't) be watching the play in question. Therefore, if so, his response to "do you have a tag" or similar could only be "no" or " i didn't see it", so you remain stuck with what you originally might have called, only to do it later after much else may have happened. I say make the call, wait for a manager to ask you if you want to ask your partner for help. If you're confident, don't ask, explain what you saw. If not, call time and discuss it privately - that way you don't create the awkward situation of forcing your partner to react to something he may have no clue about. If he did see something different, then you can change it.

I personally think it puts your partner in more of an akward situation if you wait until after the coach is complaining.
For example:
Last night I'm PU and my BU has a horrible angle on a play at third and pumps the kid out at third. Coach goes nuts cuase he is right over the play and knows his kid is safe. So after a while a parent yells ask for help and my BU immeadiately points at me...I give the kid safe because it is pretty obvious from my angle(however I almost just said I had a screened view just so that it didn't look like the coach had gotten to me with his whining). Satisfies one coach and the other goes nuts saying I'm too far away. This all could have been avoided if BU simply said "Did he make it to the bag in time?" I make the call it is the only call and they can't argue this 50/50 BS. I as PU prefer the asking me before you get into all sorts of trouble. That'll be one of the things I discuss with my new partners from here on out.

However I would also reccomend you are pretty sure your partner had a good view...and if you aren't positive make sure it is a private conversation.

[Edited by CDcoach on Jun 26th, 2003 at 02:57 PM]

If a coach asks you to go to your partner go to your partner to make him happy. Just make sure,before the game starts, that your partner will go along with call that you make.

Greg

don't ask me then!!!
 

Greg,

That's scary. Don't even think about asking me for help if you want me to agree with you.

Then simply make the call on your own, which you should have done to start with (with a few exceptions)

If we have a question, we will get together, discuss it and then if you have the call, you will make the final decision and then tell the coach.

I will let the other team know and we play ball.

Thanks
David

Tee is right......
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B
[B]<B>Greg,


Then simply make the call on your own, which you should have done to start with (with a few exceptions)</B>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Lets see, you are 110% sure of your call and ask for help......<b>DUH!!!</b> Simply say <b>NO...(insert any favored phrase here...</b>

Sorry, Gre144, gotta disagree with you. If I make a call, I'll stick by it. If I do go to my partner, I want what he has. The idea is still to get it right.

If requesting help <u>during</u> playing action, the question and answer obviously need to be loud---thus public.

If requesting help <u>after</u> play has ended, both question and answer should always be private. Even if the partner yells the question, you can still approach him for private conversation regarding the answer The responsible official can then announce the decision.

If you ask for help on your call---publicly or privately---be willing to accept the decision of your partner. That is, once you bring him into the situation don't make him stick with your call if he thinks it crappy. If you do, you won't have anything to discuss beyond the first time.


Just my opinion,

Freix

I guess I started the B versus C stuff... sorry

I do mostly FED. FED says position C. Personally I tend to line up in the C position and then move toward the pitcher's mound several steps. From position C as specified in the FED book, it is almost impossible to get a good look at a first base play - closer to the mound gives me a better look. Rarely do I make a call at 3rd, so 1st is important and we should stay in a position to see 1st.

Asking for help...
How can the BU see an out and then ask the PU 90 feet away for help and the PU says SAFE!? If the PU sees a safe, then the BU probably was guessing. I never ask my partner to make the final call. I ask specific questions like "Was a tag made? Was his foot on the base?" ... etc. then I give my call based upon that response. ALWAYS ASK THE QUESTION FIRST (gather your information) THEN GIVE YOUR CALL.

Don't shoot first then ask questions. :D

Tony:
Rarely, if ever, would/should one umpire ask another one for his view/opinion . . . if they're each watching their areas of responsibility.

With no one on, there's no reason in God's green earth that the BU should ask the PU if there was a tag or if a foot was on a base. The PU is watching EVERYTHING except for that. (Excluding of course the possiblity that the BU was suffering a coronary at the time; or became instantaneously blinded by a lightning bolt from heaven.)

Now; if the BU does ask . . . you're in the awkward position of having to render a judgement based on what you may have seen; even if it wasn't your job to specifically watch it. How dumb is that? ("I don't know what he saw; I'm looking for overthrows and interference.")

With R1's and R3's, the scenario may be more difficult for the BU; but certainly not impossible. Same thing . . . PU should be watching something other than tags and missed bases at 1st.

Umps gotta learn to "call 'em as I see 'em".

Jerry

I am not a regular umpire but enjoy lurking on the board to learn more about the rules. I thought this would be an interesting book to acquire so I went looking for it as well. While the link posted earlier does direct you to a place where it could be ordered I also found this link:

http://macroweb.com/ibrules/

On this page you can generate a random quiz choosing the number of questions that you want, take the quiz, have it graded and then for each answer have an explanation of why the call was made including the rules reference.

I have taken a few quizzes at this point and it is nice to be able to "Blow The Call" without causing problems with Players/Managers/Fans. I also think that I will better retain the correct answer this way. I don't know if it would be of interest to anyone but thought that I would share.

what do to!
 

1) Only ask for help if you REALLY need it. in any instance, stick to your guns! And careful, the FIRST time you get questioned, and they get thier way, then it'll set you up for disaster the next time around

2) Dont try to even it up!

3) You are the Ump, not them!

4) SELL THE CALL in the first place.

5) Call TIME if you feel you want to ask your partner, meet up with your partner, and act like you're "discussing"...then stick with your call. Sometimes coaches will just be happy with you "asking for help"

6) If you got it wrong, live with it, the only way you will improve is if you allow yourself to LEARN from the mistakes you made! Whether is be positioning, knowledge of the rules, or even the controversial strike zone!

I had posted a question before about changing a call. I had mixed reviews, so I thought I'd ask it again here since it came up. Here is my question.

If a call is reversed, who announces the call after their conference, the one who originally made the call, or the one changing the call?

In polite company, ...
<LI>After a private discussion, the calling umpire may change a call.
<LI>After a very, visual point for help, the partner's call shall stand.
mick

I agree. Again, sometimes all the coaches want is the satisfaction of knowing the Umpire "listened" to thier pleas. Be careful though, some of them will tend to abuse this...

Say what???
 

Thanks
David