Ejection
 

High School Varsity game. R1 attempts to steal second and is tagged out on a very close play. He slid head first to the back side of the bag and was tagged right on the hand as he was arriving at the base. Upon me signaling an out he gets up on his knees and outstretches his arms and says "Are you kidding me" followed by a "that's bullsh*t". I eject him at this point. The player begins asking what he did wrong and that he was talking to the shortstop and not me. His comments were loud enough that I could easily hear them and in no doubt directed towards me in my opinion. The first base coach who is the assistant wants an explanation. I begin to explain to him and before I can the head coach has come over from the third base box. I was starting to get somewhat double teamed so I backed off the assistant at this point and only spoke to the head coach. I explained to the head coach my reasoning and all he kept saying was that his player was not talking to me but the shortstop as they play on the same travel team and are good friends and that I was too quick to eject and should have gave a warning. Things eventually simmer down and the game continues.

Fast-forward an inning and in between innings the head coach comes back over to me as he wants to explain the whole story as he says. He starts with that I was too quick on the ejection and that the shortstop said bull**** first because even he thought the runner was safe. I told him we were not going to discuss it and his reply was that if I was going to have rabbit ears that I should at least be able to hear the other team too. I again tell him that we are not going to discuss it further and he goes back to his dugout saying that he just wanted me to know the entire story.

So now that story time is over, I have four questions. 1st, do you all thing that I was too quick to eject and should have instead gave a warning? 2nd, would you have ignored the assistant coach and waited on the head coach or would you have tried to explain as I did. 3rd, when the coach came out in between innings would you have ejected him for his comments or how would you have handled the situation. 4th, when explaining to the coach what his player said, would you have used the actual phrase? The two things I was taught to never do was curse or be out of uniform. I repeated what the player said as to me this was the easiest way to explain.

Thoughts and thanks.

1. I think the EJ was appropriate for HS. You could have issued a warning, but it is not required. 3-3-1-g-2

2. Tell the asst. coach to get back in his box. He is not allowed to leave the box to argue a judgement call. 3-3-1-g-6

3. I think you handled it fine. He went away. Mission accomplished.

4. No need to repeat it. The coach obviously heard it anyway. Put it in your EJ report however, word-for-word.

He's done. Bringing up an argument from the past is an ejection.

Really? He's still in the game?

Good EJ. Don't fall for the old "not talking to you" BS. Profanity is prohibited, no matter who it's aimed at.

Agree with what the others have said.

Like Dash said, good EJ on the runner, and you should have sent the water boy, er, assistant coach back to his little box, as he had no business approaching you about a judgment call. I differ from Dash, and side with Mr. Umpire, in that the coach returned to "tell you the whole story" (my a$$) and then made some crap up to try to cover his mouthy player's a$$. That would have at the least put him on the short list for leaving. Then, he called you rabbit ears, at which time he should have been sent packing. He is saying that you shouldn't hear a clearly audible remark directed in your general direction. That's not rabbit ears, that's called listening. Rabbit ears is when you react to general grousing and dugout banter and let it affect you, not when you are being cursed. Since when do these punk high school kids get away with swearing? I would have been ejected when I played, and then my dad would have beat my a$$ good when I got home. Kids nowadays.:rolleyes:

It seems to me as if coaches and players are getting more bold as the years go along. I have a theory on why but there is not enough time in a day to get into it haha.

I personally had no second guesses on the ejection and felt as if I gave the coaches a longer leash than I should have. After ejecting a player my thought process was if I ignored the assistants request then I would look like a jerk and I did not eject the head coach cause I thought that it would cause a big uproar and things had just calmed down. I know that coaches are going to back their players but I was sadly surprised when the coach tried to defend his players actions. When I played if myself or any of my teammates did this we would have been benched rather quickly. My parents would not have been pleased with me either.

I don't have a problem with you dumping the HC if that's the way you want to handle it. I would too if he came out ranting and raving, but the OP did not suggest that, at least to me. I took it to be more of a conversation - in a normal tone - between innings. I am also not overly offended by the "rabbit ears" comment, especially when the HC heard it too, and he was 100+ feet farther away. Now if it was yelled at me and everyone else heard it, then I would get rid of him. Otherwise, I would just walk away and ignore. In this case, that is the quickest way to get back to baseball. If he continued after me, then he goes, but I did not infer that from the OP.

Personally, as soon as the assistant coach starts arguing or really saying anything after leaving his box he and his head coach are benched.
I am not really a fan of benching normally but in this case this is explicatly supported by rule.
Plus the head coaches second discussion would have gone, "Can we talk about that play where you dumped my player?", "No" as I turn and find somewhere else to stand until he gets the hint that discussion during the game is not going to happen. Plus the rabbit ears comment gets him close to the boot all on its own, it is a dirrect comment on your judgement and integrity. Boot him and get a coach who wants to coach and not argue with you about a player who no longer is in the current game.

Jasper

I would've cut the coach off, said "That's ancient history," and walked away from him. If he follows, it's much easier to eject him if necessary. I'm certainly not going to stand there and listen to his side of the story after he had 2 innings to come up with one.

Rabbit ears? Bye bye.

Yea the coach was just talking in a normal tone each time he came to talk to me. In hind sight I believe he was just frustrated and wanted to come up with an excuse for his player. I have found out that this particular team's next game is against a big rival and that it counts towards seeding for the tournament. The player ejected just so happened to be one of the best on his team and by getting ejected he will not be allowed to play.

That's because not enough guys dump them when they need to be dumped.
Your EJ on the player was a no-brainer. The coach should have left as well.

Until they go when they need to go, they'll keep on acting like they do.

Great reply, Sir. I couldn't agree more. Even without the cursing, I think the hands stretched out like that is trying to "show up" the Umpire.
While just for that, I probably wouldn't have tossed him, I would have warned him by saying "Knock it off, if you want to stay in this game!!!"
The swearing just makes it a "no brainer". Otherwise he tries to get away with a little more from the next crew.

What??????????????
 

If you're working HS varsity baseball, and you need affirmative on the dumping the base runner, you might be in over your head.

If the head coach thinks you have rabbit ears, and tells you such, you should nip it in bud immediately, or at least restrict him to bench at the very least. He should be discipling his player, not making excuses, and blaming the ejection on you.

Always remember, the less you say, the less you have to account for in an ejection report.

Well the reason I was looking for confirmation was in the review session with the UIC he felt as if I should have gave a team warning first. While backing me on the ejection his response to it was if he was officiating that he would have asked the player what he said and if the player repeated himself or lead on then he would have ejected. If he said nothing then he would have issued a warning and if something happened later he would eject. While not disagreeing with my ejection he felt as if he would have given the player a chance to redeem himself. In my opinion if a player cusses me on a field I am going to eject regardless of the situation though.

Good toss, no warning for disrespectively addressing an umpire and if was not he will be more careful next time, but we all know he was.

No tolerance for assistants in my state who want to argue anything. They don't deserve an explanation, only HC can get one if they ask nicely. If asst argues a call restrict him and the HC to the dugout for remainder. That is the rule around here.

The player ejection was good as it sounds like he was loud enough for all to hear. That old line that he wasn't talking to you is just BS. There is no warning needed before ejection.

You mad a mistake talking to the assistant coach. I tell assistant coaches to get back in their box and if they don't, they too, are ejected. I only speak to the HC.

If the HC comes to you after the fact, "Coach, that play is in the past and I am not discussing it." and walk away. If he continues to follow and push the issue, give him a choice - restriction or ejection.

No offense to your UIC, but I believe he is full of it. He is advocating baiting the player into repeating the swearing. By doing so, you would open yourself up to much more scrutiny. Then the coach could rightfully claim that you baited his player into swearing twice. You already heard what he said, you didn't need it repeated. Your opinion was and is correct. This is HS baseball, and the participants are not allowed to vent using swear words. In adult ball, college ball, pro ball, whatever...saying "Bullsh*t" is nothing at all, even if in your direction. The point is that HS children are not adults, and are not to be permitted to speak to adults in such a disrespectful manner. Hopefully, this young stud learned a lesson about talking to his elders.

I would agree with this BUT- In the last few years I have seen waaaay more "veterans" (guys repeating their first year for the fifteenth time) that allow this kind of behavior. It's a poor example, and I have no problem with an official posting here and being affirmed that, yes, there are plenty of officials who penalize unsportsmanklike behavior with the appropriate sanction. YMMV.

Steve I agree with you that it seems like you are baiting the player if you do as the UIC suggested. I believe that it was a good ejection and given the situation again I will probably do the same as I did. There is no reason why a high school aged athlete should use profanity toward an official and not get reprimanded. Maybe now he will think twice before smarting off to a call. The sad part of this is that the play was not even close as he was clearly out.

That's not sad at all. It's like a teaspoon of sugar with the medicine.

I think your UIC needs some backbone - this is bad advice.

It is bad advice because the rule does not provide an option for a team warning, only a warning to the offender (and only if the offense is minor).

To the other posters: What would be an example of profanity you would consider minor in nature? In other words, what profane statement would result in a warning for the first offense rather than an ejection? Just curious.

Anything under the breath, or something like "damn" without God preceding it. Something that isn't directed at the umpire, or with gestures. These examples come to mind. I find profanity on the ball field unacceptable at the youth ball level. I usually will tell players to knock it off, unless it is said so everyone can hear it and it shows me up in any way.

Profanity that is loud enough for others to hear but not directed at me or a result of a call might qualify (such as anger at one's self after a swing and a miss, or maybe even after hurting themselves (although I suspect my cursometer would be a little more lenient in the latter as compared to the former). Or perhaps a non-F-Bomb cuss word that was quiet enough that only I heard it.

You're asking us to define borderline - this might be an exercise in squeezing butter.

I don't have a problem with his posting at all. I thought he let the coach be a bit of douche, but the last thing I would want to do is eject a coach. I've restricted two to the bench, but they were JV coaches and young. Plus, all it would done in the long run was hurt the fans, and both teams. Dumping a HS varsity coach is somewhat frowned upon by our association for various reasons, but we have so few problems with them. For the most part, they all come out, and address a call politely, and in a proper manner.

Coming out and addressing us politely is much different than being a douche.

None of us want to dump a coach. However, if he needs to go, he needs to go.

This is bad umpiring. This shouldn't be the last thing or the first thing you want to do. Your "wants" shouldn't come into play at all, just like on any other call. An ejection is merely another call you make, just like any other. If a runner is safe, it's your job to call it. If a coach ejects himself, it's your job to announce it. You shouldn't "want" anything in either direction here. Call what you see.

This is the way I approach any ejection. I do not eject anyone -it is a self-inflicted wound. I just formalize.

Well said.

I amend my statement to read that the head coach was a whiny douche.

I've never had, in my opinion, a good enough reason to eject a head coach, not that I wouldn't if necessary. We all know who the idiots are, you just have handle them a little different. I know how to shut them down.

I had one that gave me a very slight bump one time. I read him the riot act in front of everybody, but I did call his AD, and let him know what happened. I also reported it to my association president to let him know what the deal was.

Looking back I probably should have ejected him at that time because of an incident with his players earlier. But I was somewhat still "wet behind the ears" at the varsity level, and it also being my first year. However, he now walks the straight and narrow for the very most part. He now knows the repercussions that would have come with an ejection, and thanked me the next time I worked his team.

I've had two partners that ejected a head coach, and they both said it was more of a headache in the long run than they anticipated. They love the restriction rule now. The UIL doesn't have a lot of love for it's officials.

There's always three thing in some of these cases. He said, she said, and the truth.

The only ejection you'll regret is the one you don't make!!!

That's a bit of an understatement. Talk about an organization deeming you a necessary evil.

Any and all. They're just words.

My rule is, "Don't call me names." By that standard, "You blind bat" is on equal footing with "You stupid MFer" and you're getting tossed for either one.

A loud "F-CK!" for taking a called third right down the middle doesn't disrespect me, the opponent, or do anything to gain an illegal advantage, so why should I care? If I wanted to teach social graces, I would've chosen a different profession.

My ejections are all in two categories: can't get him to leave any other way (protracted), and name-calling (personal). Profane without being one of the other two doesn't bother me in the least.

A loud F-Bomb needs to be penalized at the HS level and below.

If you adhere to the philosophy that the field is an extension of the classroom, then we must eject for profanity.

For argument sake, what would happen if a student just received an "F" on a test and yelled **** loud enough for the whole classroom to hear?

Don't you just work pro ball? F-bombs in HS ball are not acceptable, and if they are loud enough for small children (and anyone whose ears aren't garbage cans) in the crowd to hear, the offender is going away.

I don't adhere to the philosophy. I've never seen a teacher yell at a student the way I see football, basketball, and baseball coaches yell at players.

So, do you think a loud F-Bomb (heard by all in attendance) by a high school player is permissable?

A loud F-Bomb gets a player or coach tossed. Period. 3-3-1-g-2 (NFHS). Penalty is ejection.

If it is said low enough such that only I and the catcher can hear, then I would exercise some preventive officiating and warn the offender and maybe let the coach know (discreetly) that a warning has been issued. If it is so loud that everyone can hear it, you have no choice. Dump them.

If you don't, then you can be accused of selective rule enforcement. Plus, what would you do if a kid or coach on the other team lets loose with an F-bomb loud enough for all to hear? You can't dump THEM.

"Nip it in the bud!" - Barney Fife.

You obviously never met my geometry teacher.