Does it behoove the B/R...?

[Welpe]

SA, are you referring to OBR or Fed?

Publius, I respect the work Carl has put in over the years not only compiling these interpretations but also in keeping them current. I don't think it is a stretch to say that J/R had fallen out of favor lately. Add to the fact that the Wendelstedt school is but one of two where PBUC selects their candidates so I am quite comfortable in relying upon them for the latest interpretations.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

Both Fed and OBR.

Legal appeals can be made after the third out has been made that supersede the third out. In the OP, the defense claims that if the appeal is made at 1st base, the run does not score. Is it valid though?

How many runs haves scored in 59,000+ MLB games and over a million FED games when a batter failed to reach first base? My estimate is zero. Compare that to the number of runs that count as a result of scoring before a successful tagout is applied. I would say the defense has a valid argument.

Usually, BR reaches base successfully before he is tagged out trying to extend his progress while a play is being made on someone else. Not here in our OP. Usually the BR is thrown out at 1B before a runner is tagged on the baseline. Not here in our post. Neither happened in this OP. I can understand why the defense would appeal. Why am I bailing out a runner who failed to reach his base prior to being put out at first base, albeit, after the 3rd out?

Find a rule that allows for an appeal because a runner didn't reach a base, live or dead, 0, 1, 2, or 3 out.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

I wouldn't allow an appeal with 0, 1, or 2 outs. BR would be called out as part of a DP or inning ending DP.
I would not allow him to walk off the field during live action either.
A) Explain why I should allow BR to walk off on the final play of the game
B) Explain why I should deny the defense the opportunity to appeal with 3 outs.
C) Explain why I should deny an official protest made by the coach.
Please enlighten me about a base never reached and how it affects the play.
I don't have a clue how to use it to justify a scorned run.
Apply your definition of a fielder's choice here.

If you weren't a troll that destroyed an otherwise useful thread, you'd know the answer to B is the same as the answer to the question I asked you.

There is no rule that allows an appeal in this case.

[MD Longhorn]

I thought this horse died on Friday.

This is absurd. Once the 3rd out of the inning is made, no other action by the offense matters. None. No other action by the defense matters except as described by the rulebook - which includes ONLY an appeal of a transgression done by the offense BEFORE that 3rd out was made.

After the 3rd out - whether batter-runner eventually reaches first base or not is entirely immaterial. No 4th out is available here EXCEPT on an appeal. In fact, SA, if your logic holds any water, then even if BR DOES continue to first after the 3rd out is made, it does not matter - the play was over and BR was not at 1st when the 3rd out was made.

THERE IS NO RULE that allows further play to be made regarding action that happens after the 3rd out --- to reiterate, the ONLY thing the defense can do is appeal regarding something that happened BEFORE that 3rd out was made.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

THERE IS NO RULE that allows further play to be made regarding action that happens after the 3rd out --- to reiterate, the ONLY thing the defense can do is appeal regarding something that happened BEFORE that 3rd out was made.

Whoa! That was my brain-child, pages ago , but nobody confirmed or denied it.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by saump

ba, i wasn't the one holding the ****ty end of the stick. I agreed to allow the run to score. I already wiped my hands of it. You allow it to be recorded by the scorekeeper and that's ok with me.

wobw.

[Lapopez]

SAump, you've been awfully busy deleting your posts. That's peculiar.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

We must now determine the BR's status BEFORE that 3rd out was made.
3) The defense can appeal the batter's status before the 3rd out was made.

No, they can't. He had not committed an infraction.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

No infraction, no appeal. I got that and I thank you for the info. Is this new interpretation suppose to make things easier or more difficult for the umpire?

If a batter's failure to acquire 1st base prior to the 3rd out were an infraction, then I could accept that appeal and wipe off that run at the end of the ballgame like other similar rules allow. Baseball remains very simple. There I go looking for an infraction, but I have been down that road. Let me see if I understand you and can follow your logic, and take this shorter route back towards a simple game.

My Ex. OP. R1 touches 1st base prior to 3rd out tag of R2. Score fielder's choice, score run, score single, score RBI. See, someone is watching and each player has a simple option to rule upon.

Your Ex. OP. R1 touches 1st base after R2 is tagged. Score run, score error and score fielder's choice, score base never reached, score no credit for RBI. See, now I have to reinvent the current method of scoring my ballgame. Why does BR have to run the bases after a walk, or home run? Can't you just give them credit too.

I think I prefer my way, or the current way of doing things. But if I must travel down this road and this is the new rule and I accept it, how do I connect a base never reached by a non-forced runner, to base never acquired by the batter? IOW, how do I score that last play of the half inning.

Please keep it simple for me.

Go read the rules. BR is scored LOB.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SAump

3) The defense can appeal the batter's status before the 3rd out was made.

You're aware that the word "appeal" has a specific meaning in baseball, and it doesn't just mean "to ask about". You "appeal" an infraction. I see no logic or rule support for "appealing the batter's status".

That said ... the batter's status at the moment the 3rd out was made is "not out" He has not been tagged and neither has 1st base.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by SAump

So it isn't an appeal play either. Then the umpire must enforce the rule, right?

The umpire must enforce MLB rule 8-5j which states that NO run may score on any play when the third out is ... the result of a batter-runner's failure to reach first base safely.

Refer to OP. We have any play. We have the third out. We have a result of the batter-runner's failure. We have a base never reached. Seems to me like it meets all the requirements to fulfill the proper ruling, NO run may score.

Had the batter reached base safely, the run would score. But the batter hit the ball to F5 who tagged R3 before BR could reach base safely. The batter failed to reach base safely, whether he was liable or not liable to be put out by rule 6.08, 6.09, or 7.01.

It is not F5's fault the BR failed to reach base safely. It was his job to make sure BR would not reach base safely. He did his job by tagging R2. The fact that R3 scored on the play and the umpire refused to wipe the run off the board, as per rule 8.05j above is the only reason I continue this discussion.

Is there a protocol for requesting to a moderator that a thread be closed? Last night, before deleting it, he threatened to delete the whole thread (not that I think he could). This is ridiculous. He's referencing completely irrelevant rules and misquoting others. The thread has run its course.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Is there a protocol for requesting to a moderator that a thread be closed? Last night, before deleting it, he threatened to delete the whole thread (not that I think he could). This is ridiculous. He's referencing completely irrelevant rules and misquoting others. The thread has run its course.

He can't delete the whole thread, only you can do that since you started the thread. I told you not to expect logic.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Is there a protocol for requesting to a moderator that a thread be closed? Last night, before deleting it, he threatened to delete the whole thread (not that I think he could). This is ridiculous. He's referencing completely irrelevant rules and misquoting others. The thread has run its course.

For some reason, they let him keep posting his drivel. Those of us who have been here a while know he's a dip****, while the newbies who actually want to learn get confused by his verbal diarrhea.

The amount that he posts is directly proportional to the irrelevance of this board, which is a shame.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Is there a protocol for requesting to a moderator that a thread be closed?...The thread has run its course.

I hope not. This forum has become better reading without an egoist moderator playing emperor concerning when a thread has "run its course." A thread has run its course when everybody stops commenting on it.

Many people gain greater understanding (not just knowledge) by parsing what's wrong than they do by blindly accepting what's right.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by SAump

The umpire must enforce MLB rule 8-5j which states that NO run may score on any play when the third out is ... the result of a batter-runner's failure to reach first base safely.

OBR rule 8.05(j) states: If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when the pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base.

OBR 4.09(a)(1) is what you meant to quote. However, there's one word you missed, and I'll highlight it for you: One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

Your third out wasn't by the batter-runner, it was by R2.