Something I've always been dying to ask other umpires about. I don't know how many of you use house rules that include a balk warning component, but I'll fill you in as best I can. For the Bronco and Pony kids (11-12 and 13-14) there are balk warnings. For the 11-12s it's a warning per pitcher, for 13-14s it's a warning per team. Now, of course you can't call balks without a runner on base. Or, I've been led to believe this without actually looking up the section in the FED rulebook...but if I'm wrong someone correct me right away.

(Oh great, IHSA is gonna love this, I just passed my Part 1 rules test and I'm already making them look bad for patching me...heh).

So I guess my question is, even though you can't call balks without runners on base, presuming I'm right of course, how would you feel about wasting the warnings without runners? My rationale is that because it's house ball, the purpose is to teach the kids, and it's easier for them to make the adjustment before they're under pressure with runners on base.

What does everyone think?

Here's how it works in PONY around here:

At the plate conference -

Coach: Are you going to warn us about balks?

Me: Yep. Here's the warning: We're calling balks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
lets get something clarified first.. A Balk is an illegal action by the F1 to decieve a runner. NO runners, NO BALK!!!! PONY BB uses OBR, toss the FED book. F1 is in wind-up OR set,fails to deliver...let it go.PLEASE read the shaded parts

To clarify, the class of 13-14 baseball is called 'Pony' around here, that's why I didn't capitalize it. FED are the rules we play under - no exceptions. And you still didn't answer the question - I didn't ask about the balk rule, I asked about an interpretation of an unclear house rule. I tend to call warnings simply because of the educational nature of the league. There is no clear-cut right or wrong answer on this according to the rule book, since FED is obviously silent on warnings, and anything not covered in house (and this certainly isn't) goes to FED rules.

You play FED rules in a PONY league? Does PONY know about this?

What do these poor kids do at tournament time?

Okay, since evidently there is a great deal of confusion as to why we use the rules we do, I'll explain as best I can about how the structure of our organization is set up (seeing as how me saying we use FED rules evidently isn't good enough.)

House league, we are managed by an independent non-profit with a nonetheless meaty budget that aside from House rules, plays under FED rules. If memory serves me correctly, we went to FED last year. The BoD made the decision, not for any particular reason that I can recall, but it happened. We certainly didn't use OBR before that...maybe if I dig up an '01 rule book I can tell you precisely what we were using.

At tournament time, the tournament specifies what rules we're playing under. Usually it's FED - and that goes double for the older kids, because they're not too far off from being under FED jurisdiction anyways.

*I might add that because I do high school as well, there's no reason to toss the FED book.

*Hey, look at that! Well, went back and found the 2001 rule book, and sure enough, we were using OBR. I also found the memo to umpires from the BoD regarding the switch. Their rationale was to prepare kids for high school ball. What can I say? ::shrugs::

[Edited by IHSAIllini on Jun 1st, 2003 at 09:23 PM]

I would assume then that when your PONY teams travel outside your area for tournaments they are in for a few surprises.

Haven't heard too many complaints. And I typically hear all the complaints...but our players are pretty well-read, to say nothing of the coaches (who, like most, know none of the rules) and either evidently understand the difference between FED and OBR, or it just doesn't come up. Probably the latter.

Out of curiosity, speaking as someone who's never had time to read the entire rulebook cover to cover, what are the major differences between FED and OBR, in a nutshell? I caught the verbal interference one earlier..

Apparently, you've barely had the time to even open it up -- there's a summary chart right in the FED rule book. That's a good place to start.

I could do without the snide remarks.

I asked a valid question and would have liked a simple "In the FED rulebook, they list the major differences." For the record, I am well aware of the chart's existence, I just didn't process that they were differences between OBR because naturally I assumed that the MLB rules were different, as FED specifies differences with pro ball. It seems that MLB uses OBR, though.

Y'all seem awful hostile to someone trying to learn a little more about the rules so I can be a better umpire. Sorry I can't cite the rules from memory, if I umpired as my job I'd probably be able to.

IHS -
No runners, no balk, no balk warning.
If the pitcher is doing something that would be a balk, tell the coach between innings. He can fix it or not. Then it is his problem, not yours.
Apparently, some here will not understand the difference between PONY, Pony, and pony ball.

That's true, but also part of being a good umpire is doing your homework. This board is a great way to learn and ask specific questions, but there are many many differences in FED and OBR.

Getting a copy of the BRD (Baseball Rule Differences by Carl Childress) is a good start. It will help you to see in black and white many of the differences.

As far as your rules, we do a lot of the same. Most of our leagues use FED all the time.

FED is mostly safety concious so if you are doing FED rules then you should have no problem playing a league or tourney that uses OBR. The problem is guys that might use OBR and then come to a FED tourney.

Balks, call them all. That's the way the kids learn. He can do a lot of things with no runners that might be a balk with runners on. Let that be your warning.

But make sure you know what the balk rules are also. Study study, study.

Rule 6 in the FED book, I would know it and then if you're using FED you also need to look at TOP (time of pitch) in Rule 2 since this is different etc.,

Thanks
David

It is cRazy....
 

It is not that hard.
 

Good Lord, baseball is baseball. The differences are not like NF Football rules as compared to NCAA Football Rules, which have about 200 rules differences between them. Even in basketball the rules are much more difficult to grasp (and it is not hard, let me tell you) between the HS, college and pro ranks. Baseball is baseball and it is still about safes/outs, balls and strikes. Of course their are differences that are worth noting, but it is not like there is a chasm of differences that does not make it doable for umpires, coaches and kids to adjust to. And as youth players get older, they have to adjust to the new rules as they move from LL to HS ball.

Also in Illinois, it is not uncommon for the Summer or Spring Leagues that are not HS ball to use NF Rules. Mainly because the umpires the work those games are most of the time NF Umpires. When I did LL Majors (whatever the level the kids that are of HS age play) in my home town, we went strictly under NF Rules. And my understanding is that OBR is suppose to be used in "sactioned" events. Baseball is not a big sport in this state as it is in other parts of the country, that might contribute for the focus on the rules. This is primarily a basketball state and it is much more common to see kids play in summer basketball than play baseball. Just the way it is.

Peace

<b>"Good Lord, baseball is baseball.</b>

Ah, Mr. Rut. You never disappoint.

The differences between FED and PONY are many and significant.

What is and isn't legal equipment, especially in the case of bats, is different. The pitching rules are different - both in regulations on the mechaincs and pitching time, some re-entry opportunities are different, the concept of a legal slide is different, there is no force play slide rule in PONY, the obstruction rule is different, some rules on runners are different........


I could go on, but looking at your past history, I doubt it would be useful.

Whadda mean I can't......
 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
Use my minus 12, or skull cap......

That is why the NF Rules Difference in the book is just one page.
 

I did not say there were not any differences. But I did say the differences are not so drastic that it is not doable. Baseball is not football where the "Free Blocking Zone" is entirely differenet from the NF Ranks to the NCAA level. Baseball is still baseball. They still have to hit, they still have to catch and they still have to run. The same priciples for the players and coaches are the same. The rules still do not change stradegy or the fundamentals of the game like "hitting the cut off man," I think they can function with different rules. From a standpoint of doing other sports, the game is not that different.

Peace

As I said Rut, you never disappoint.


When you have a clue about that which you atttempt to speak, c'mon back and we'll go over it.

I don't know, but I will guess from when I actually played.
 

Here is the deal, I do not think the players give a damn how many bases are awarded when we call obstruction or when the ball goes into dead ball territory. It is like a college freshman football player worrying about where the spot of the foul is on his holding call. This is not their concern or something they lay up night thinking about. They are more concerned that the call was made and why you made the call, not the wording of the rules and the codes that dictate it. And even though a FED Obstruction might be different than a PONY Obstruction, the kids are not going to mull over the difference like we are. But then again, I remember playing the game thru HS and I could not even tell you what obstruction was when I left HS. I am sure the kids that play the game are not in for that much of a shock. Just a guess, maybe? ;)

Peace

Hey rut...
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Your football knowledge is by far your strong point....What position you work?? FBZ, sounds like U to me! Was R one sunny day, kid holds DE after backing up bout 15 yards behind LOS, I toss hankie. My U, (grizzled vet) gets D captain for enforcment, tells himfirst and ten or 3 and WAYYYback there... Pass was completed...penalty declined

Juniors
 

We play juniors (13-14). As a coach in a league where this is the first time on a big diamond for some of these pitchers, I think it is very important to remember something. IT IS FOR THE KIDS!!!. I don't have a problem when an umpire tells both coaches that he will usaully give a warning before he calls a balk. When I see something I will mention it to the umpire so he can warn the opposing pitcher. Who cares, we are trying to teach these kids to be better players and understand the rules. Let's not forget why we are there.

Kind of a generality that "we're here for the kids and for them to learn baseball", don't you think? We're here to officiate a game as fairly and impartially as we can; and to administer the rules of the game as they're intended.

Leave the teaching to the coaches. That's their job.

As for "warnings", you tread on thin ice deciding the severity of the infraction. As an example, you warn one team that they didn't stop before coming to "set", but R1 stole 2nd base. The other team fakes a throw to 1st and catches the runner asleep. You've got warnings in both instances?

EVERYONE learns much more from your calling a balk, than by giving a "warning". See a balk; call a balk.

Jerry

I can fully appreciate that. I would actually fully welcome someone with that attitude to call our games.
My point is that kids need to pitch right. I see a lot of kids coming up that were not taught the proper mechanics. I would rather have someone warn him and sacrifice an extra base, so he can learn. He if he keeps it up, then he will have it learn it the hard.
Don't let your qeust for the perfect game get in the way of why we are participating in a 13 -14 year old game.

For those of you who are railing on the warning, understand that when I do local games I don't have a choice- the house rules mandate warnings as I specified. So, see a balk, call a warning. Then, if you see a balk again, call a balk. (Unless it's 11-12 on a new pitcher. Then it's another warning.)

If you don't like the concept behind warnings, don't rail at me about it. Talk to our Board of Directors, they establish the rules.

<i> Originally posted by IHSAIllini </i>

<b> Something I've always been dying to ask other umpires about. I don't know how many of you use house rules that include a balk warning component, but I'll fill you in as best I can. For the Bronco and Pony kids (11-12 and 13-14) there are balk warnings. For the 11-12s it's a warning per pitcher, for 13-14s it's a warning per team. Now, of course you can't call balks without a runner on base. Or, I've been led to believe this without actually looking up the section in the FED rulebook...but if I'm wrong someone correct me right away.

(Oh great, IHSA is gonna love this, I just passed my Part 1 rules test and I'm already making them look bad for patching me...heh).

So I guess my question is, even though you can't call balks without runners on base, presuming I'm right of course, how would you feel about wasting the warnings without runners? My rationale is that because it's house ball, the purpose is to teach the kids, and it's easier for them to make the adjustment before they're under pressure with runners on base.

What does everyone think? </b>

There's a problem with Warnings

Sitch: R3 less than 2 outs. F1 in wind-up

Offensive coach calls for a suicide squeeze. F1 seeing this gets rattled and in the middle of his pitching motion STOPS.

Now if you give a warning you just handed the defense an Easy OUT which they didn't earn and to make matters worse the defense is rewarded for committing an illegal act.

Here's what I recommend. Do not give warnings so you don't <i> box yourself in </i>

IMO balks are divided into what I consider the "No brainer type" meaning even the occasional fan knows it is a balk and then there are the "technical balks"

It is the "technical balks" that IMO cause the most comotion and this is the area where an umpire can use some game management skills.

Example; FED rules F1 MUST take signs on the rubber or be guilty of a balk with runners on. Even the FED official will not call this a balk on the first offense. What you do is get the attention of one of F1's teammates and have them tell him/her to correct it.

If there is a local league league rule REQUIRING blue to give a warning I would at least amend that statement to say Warnings will be given for "Technical" Violations only meaning you can still call the "no brainers".

Pete Booth

Re: Well Rut,
 

Of course a pitcher is going to know the difference between a FED balk and and OBR balk usually. But when I have a pitcher that does not realize he has to stop at a FED varsity game, it is kind of hard to give him and others credit for knowing the differences in great detail. Better yet to have a kid say, "I cannot break up the double play?" when I am umpiring a FED game.


Well I do 3 sports. In all of those sports some of the most unknowledgable comments come from players and coaches. One of the reasons coaches in many states are required to take the FED tests too. In football a player at least once a game says to me or one of my partners, "I can hit him on the ground until the whistle is blown." Or when I do a basketball game and the kids say, "is that not over the back ref?" I got another one, "is that not a reach?" Or better yet, the one we always talk about, "doesn't he have to slide?" I have been on this board too long not to here those same comments come from other officials all over the country. So it appears to me that these kids in all sports do not understand, nor try to understand or are ever taught many rules differences by their coaches. But it is not a tragic event for them when they move to other levels to play ball. The same fundamental apply and I am sure they can deal with it. If we can make the transition, I am sure they can. I thought they do that already playing FED Rules in the spring and playing OBR in the summer?

Peace

Re: Hmmmm,
 

Why in the world would I have thought that already?


Peace

Re: Hmmmm,
 

Perfect!

I am actually talked about balks out of the stretch, Not coming completely set, fumbling the ball when set, etc.