Need Help with this......runner on 2nd....shortstop yells " BACK, BACK " imatating the third base coach....interference, obstruction ??? gotta be a rule somewhere for gaining an advantage..... can use 2.22 for fed...but what about major league ruling ???

Verbal obstruction is in FED only. In OBR, the player "should know the sound of his own coach's voice" (NAPBL)

If you're going to call verbal obstruction at the Fed level, it needs to be a clear and unmistakeable action <u>that obstructs the runner</u>.

So, was the runner obstructed as a result of this action?
Did R2 break back to the base?
How do you know F6 was yelling at R2 to go back, and not yelling to F4 to indicate he (F6) was back in his proper position---thus meaning F4 should cover at 2B?

IMO, this is one that shouldn't be called at any level.


Just my opinion,

Freix

JMO Freix-
No shortstop has ever yelled at his partner that he was "BACK BACK" in position. That has not been taught by any coach that I have experience with, all levels. Ther can be only one person this is meant for and that is the runner. Treat it the same as any other OBS under FED.

Tim -
Actually had a blue on Wed. tell me he would not enforce a rule because"this isn't tennis." And this was in youth ball under FED rules. This guy is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
If you are calling FED rules then enforce the rules, all of them, not just the ones you like. Use judgement in the application but don't ignore the rule.
For the original post, it sounds like a HTBT to see what the call could/should have been.

<b>If you are calling FED rules then enforce the rules, all of them, not just the ones you like. Use judgement in the application but don't ignore the rule.</b>

Do you believe the same in regards to OBR? And when you say "the rules" do you mean as written?

Position is simple. If it is in the book , then you can't ignore it because you don't like it.
However, your judgement says the rule may or may not apply to the situation at hand.
Fed says there can be verbal obstruction.Therefore, in your judgement, if you see (hear) it, then you call it.
OBR has no such rule so there is nothing there to call.

You call each game under the rulebook selected for that game. You do not mix & match the rules to your liking.
When you step outside the rulebook, you open the door to liabilty.

I might see that on a malicious contact or something of that nature but on obstruction, its umpire judgement all the way, I don't see any thing to be liable about.

I agree that I would never call this since its accepted practice at HS and above.

I would call verbal interference, but only when it happens and F6 or F4 simply saying "back" is not IMO.

Thanks
David

Anything that passes through the strike zone is a strike. I use judgement to determine if that happened. Most pitchers like my zone, but I have not been above HS.

And if you have to ask "Liabilty to what?" then you are not as smart as I thought Tim C.

I do not care to find out how good the liabilty insurance that I pay for is. Too many people already try to second guess when they don't know anything.Had to beat a lawyer into submission once because he only thought he could read a rule book.

The original post refered to YELLING "BACK, BACK" at the runner. This is a HTBT to determine the call. All I said was it could be under Fed rules. Other codes don't cover this. Just because you don't like a rule doesn't mean you don't enforce it if it is applicable. Personally, I don't like the DH. I still need to enforce the rule properly since the schools use it.

So, did he obstruct your runner?
That is, was your runner stupid enough to break back because F6 yelled, "Back?"
If so, poor coaching.......if not, then no obstruction, and you're just complainin' bout something you don't like.


Just my opinion,

Freix

So, explain to me the "liability" about not calling verbal obstruction in a Fed game when a defensive player yells, "Back." I fail to see the connection, so I guess I'm at risk without even knowing..........

There are many things not enforced as per the written rule.
If you call a black and white book, you will be easy to pick out by all the $hithou$es occurring in your games.

Learning to umpire means learning how and when to call infractions. How well you are respected as an umpire will be based not only on your technical skills, but also on your ability to choose when to overlook small, technical violations that have little or no consequence on the game.


Freix

Bfair -
Check the posts. I never said it was my situation. I offered an opinion in answer to a question. The rule in question in my case was different. I asked about a situation between innings as I had a concern for the action that was occuring. All blue had to do was say, I'll look at it." and everything would have been fine. He would have been using his judgement to apply the rule or not. No arguement there. His respponse was, I don't enforce that rule. That means he knows of the rule and chose to ignore it.That attitude causes me great concern.

verbal obstruction
 

r1 did break back to 2nd after having great lead ...and it was without a doubt the shortstop piping up to gain an advantage....

Not a very good thing to do.
 

woolnojg,

There is a term I live by in all the sports I do, <b>"call the obvious."</b>

If you are calling things that are nit picky at best, then you are going to have many problems in officiating. You want everyone to understand what is being called if they understand what the rule states. Yes there is verbal obstruction and inteference in FED ball. But you better be sure that you are calling the game in a way that everyone is not wondering what was just called. You might have an infielder call "Back, back" to the cutoff man. You cannot just assume that he is talking to the runner. And if you are not sure, then I think it is best to pass. If you need to warn so you make it clear that it will not be tolerated. Then if they do it again and again, you might have something. But in my opinion, good umpires are not calling things that no one understands. Pitching the ball within 20 seconds is a rule, but I will be damned if I enforce it just because the ball has not been thrown in that time. Now if a pitcher is deliberately delaying the game, that is another story. But if he is up there trying to figure out signs, than that is another story all together.

Peace

just bad base running
 

But the bottom line is that is simply bad baserunning.

how many times does a coach have to say, I've got the F6, you've got F4.

So all he has to do is listen to his coach.

You might get fooled once, but once you learn what's going on, its not that big a deal.

Thanks
David

<i> Originally posted by woolnojg </i>

<b> If you are calling FED rules then enforce the rules, all of them, not just the ones you like. </b>

IMO you have to be careful with the aforementioned statement.

There are those Nit-picken rules which are only enforced on the rarest of occassions. One such rule(s) are the unifirm rule. Are you going to tell a kid he /she can't play because they are not in proper uniform?

Then there is the 20 second rule for F1. I only enforced this rule once in my career thus far and that was because F1 was a real wise a**.

It is very difficult to put in words all rules that apply or exceptions to those rules. It is our job to KNOW those rules but more importantly <b> How to apply the rules in a given situation </b>

Ok you might say why does FED have a rule for Verbal obstruction? Simple There are occassions when it is to be enforced like the first or third base coach screaming at a player trying to make a catch.

You have to be Very careful about players saying get back and other such "things". I know there is a FED case play on this but again you need to KNOW when to enforce this.

Does that mean we pick and choose which rules to enforce and which rules to not enforce. IMO NO It means we KNOW when to call such infractions depending upon the situation.

Let me give you an example;

In FED if F1 takes his signs from F2 or the coach and NOT in contact with the pitcher's plate it is a balk with runners on base.

We had R1 and I had the dish. I noticed F1 taking signs while NOT in contact with the plate. I called TIME went to clean the plate and told F2 to tell his pitcher to get the signs on the rubber. No probelms the rest of the way.

Now technically speaking and according to rule I should have called a balk, but for Game management purposes IMO I was better off doing some preventive umpiring and NOT calling the strict rule of the book. It is THEIR game not mine.

Now if the defense gains an advantage while committing an illegal act or something aginst the rules that's a different story, but rules are a guideline and through Experience and Game managemnt we learn how to call a game without ruining it. How it sounds like a title to a book (right Papa C - GRIN)

Pete Booth

Tim C -
Sounds like you need to leave. You just want to pick a fight and that seems to be it. Can't tell you what to call in every situation because so many of them are HTBT. I use judgement in all situations.Curve ball in the dirt a strike?, maybe. Have to see the whole pitch. Do I call things out of the blue?, NO. They are in the book and I expect the coaches to know what they are doing. If it is a little thing, I bring it to their attention first and let them correct it. If they don't, their problem not mine.
I used to have some respect for your opinion Tim but, you seem to want to attck and pick on things that don't exist. Ridicule and sarcasm lend little to a discussion on a subject, but that is where you seem to want to be. Can't head back to McGriffs 'cause I've never been there. IF you can't stand a little disagreement then I sugest you head elsewhere.

Said I'd have to see the whole pitch. You never mentioned whether the batter struck at the ball or not.
You've told me much about your lack of interpersonal skills also.
Do I have all the answers, nope. Do you? Apparently not.

Tim -
You still haven't said whether the batter swung at the pitch. Swing or no swing it is still a call, ball or strike.
A "called" strike would imply that there was no swing. Yeah, I know, a subtle difference. That's why so many things are HTBT to get the whole situation.

Gentlemen
 

For those that are interested in the original post...

There are times when verbal obstruction is a proper call. Back, back, back to the runner at 2nd is probably not one of them... runner ought to be able to tell the difference in location of his coach at 3rd and F6 that is behind him. Further... Back, back, back doesn't create the obstruction (impede the runner); there must be some response from the runner... if the runner does nothing different, there has been no obstruction and hence no need for an official's call.

Now... times when the call would be appropriate... Shortstop yells for runner to slide coming into 2nd and then after the slide gets tagged out at third, or players in dugout yell for runner to slide at home and in either case the runner gets injured because of the unexpected need to slide... Obstruction is a proper call and an ejection is likely relevant too for the injury.


PS. It is truly amazing how some pitchers can get a pitch through the zone and have it bounce in the dirt before it gets to the catcher. Obviously could see it in a slow pitch softball game but how does one throw it at 70 MPH and make it drop 18 inches in the next 3 feet? I've seen them and I didn't call them strikes (I wanted to), but it is still amazing.

Life is short, my friends. Play ball.
:)

Tony -
Agreed. In FED this could be a correct call. Verbal obstruction. Other codes don't carry this, so it would not apply there.
Have seen batters set up in the back of the box, with a 34" bat and their 36" arms. This can put the catcher 5' from the point of the plate. Lots of space there to drop one in.
Tim - to answer your question. Have not made that call since 2nd year. Can see that I might call it, probably not though. It is not up to any blue to decide that a rule can be ingored and not enforced by choice. If the sponsoring org. chose a rule book and didn't like a specific rule then they would modify it, done all the time by age levels. A blue can decide that the rule does not fit the situation by using judgement, about all of the facts at hand.
Usually the coach will get a warning between innings if a player is approaching the boundry of a rule. Then he can fix it, or not. But he has nothing to complain about when it gets called later on his player(s) or team. He knew and didn't fix it.

Tony writes:

<b>"There are times when verbal obstruction is a proper call. Back, back, back to the runner at 2nd is probably not one of them... runner ought to be able to tell the difference in location of his coach at 3rd and F6 that is behind him."</b>

Then woolnojg replies:


<b>"Agreed. In FED this could be a correct call. Verbal obstruction. Other codes don't carry this, so it would not apply there.</b>

Let's review...

Tony says: "no obstruction." (And he's right)

Woolnojg says: I agree..that's obstruction."

I must have missed the sign post that said "Twilight Zone."

Doo doo doo doo/ doo doo doo doo