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bob jenkins Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:11pm

Umpire Interference / Batter Interference
 
Is the "delayed dead ball" aspect of these types of interference the same?

R1 is stealing when the (A) umpire, or (B) batter interferes with F2, whose throw goes into center field. The runner tries for third and is thrown out by F8.

I know in (B) that as soon as the throw does not retire the runner, the interference is enforced (in this instance, the batter is out and the runner returns).

Is it the same in A (except no one is out, of course), or does the play stand?

Looking for OBR, NCAA and FED rules on this.

scarolinablue Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:39pm

Fed
 
In FED (5-1-2c), if there is no out made at the end of F2's throw (i.e. the initial play on the runner), the ball is then dead and the runner(s) return to their bases at the TOP.

MikeStrybel Thu Feb 02, 2012 06:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 819420)
Is the "delayed dead ball" aspect of these types of interference the same?

R1 is stealing when the (A) umpire, or (B) batter interferes with F2, whose throw goes into center field. The runner tries for third and is thrown out by F8.

I know in (B) that as soon as the throw does not retire the runner, the interference is enforced (in this instance, the batter is out and the runner returns).

Is it the same in A (except no one is out, of course), or does the play stand?

Looking for OBR, NCAA and FED rules on this.

Bob, See NCAA page 74: 6-3a.

The ball becomes dead and baserunners return when the plate umpire interferes with the catcher's attempt to throw anywhere.

See you at the clinic tonight.

umpjong Thu Feb 02, 2012 07:29pm

Someone has been taking the NCAA test. :D

Have you submitted it yet?

dash_riprock Thu Feb 02, 2012 08:26pm

I did. 92. I'm not happy. Something is wrong. (Yeah I know, five of my answers.) I'm looking forward to reviewing it.

DG Thu Feb 02, 2012 09:23pm

Good one.

I believe the codes are the same.

BRD has no mention of this situation although 337 and 338 are close.

J/R has an interpretation for OBR and lists a FED rule.

OBR 5.09 (b) and NOTE

NCAA 6-3a is under a "Delayed Dead Ball - Runners Return or Advance". While it says the ball is dead when umpire interferes with a throw anywhere it is under the delayed ball heading so I think the intent is to apply the NOTE comments under OBR.

FED case book on delayed dead ball clarifies the FED question I think. 5.1.2 Sit B is a good one.

All seem to agree to me, umpire interferes with catcher throw then delayed dead ball, runner retired stands, if not return. So as soon as throw goes into CF plate ump should call time and enforce the dead ball return of runner, same as he would if F2 interfered and the throw got runner into rundown.

CT1 Fri Feb 03, 2012 08:29am

Should it matter *who* does the interferring? The principle is the same -- F2 should have an unobstructed chance to retire the runner.

If his throw still retires R1, then the "interference" didn't have any effect. Otherwise, dead ball, runners return.

bob jenkins Fri Feb 03, 2012 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 819545)
Bob, See NCAA page 74: 6-3a.

The ball becomes dead and baserunners return when the plate umpire interferes with the catcher's attempt to throw anywhere.

See you at the clinic tonight.

Right, but it doesn't say *when* the ball becomes dead, and the "runner is out if initial throw retires him, otherwise enforce the interference" wording is written *only* for BI.

I sure thought it was the same, but a review (or over-thinking) has me wondering.

dash_riprock Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:52am

I share your dilemma Bob. And generally, I loathe countermanding the literal rule. But I can't see penalizing the defense (negating an opportunity for an out) for an act by the umpire when clearly the intent of the rule is to nullify the act.

And since the NCAA says its baseball rules "essentially are the same as for professional baseball," I consider this difference to be an uncaught typo.

bob jenkins Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 819796)
I share your dilemma Bob. And generally, I loathe countermanding the literal rule. But I can't see penalizing the defense (negating an opportunity for an out) for an act by the umpire when clearly the intent of the rule is to nullify the act.

And since the NCAA says its baseball rules "essentially are the same as for professional baseball," I consider this difference to be an uncaught typo.

In the play on the test, R1 is stealing, PU interferes, the ball is thrown into center field, R1 is then thrown out trying for third. So, negating the play would penalize the defense.

dash_riprock Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:24am

I think the question is whether the ball stays live for F2's initial throw, as it does with CI. If it does, then I you must follow the same guidelines, i.e., the ball is dead when F2's initial attempt does not retire the runner.

I didn't have that question on my first go-around but it is #38 on the 2nd one. Since an immediate dead ball is not one of the answers, I think the only other possibility is c - R1 is returned to first.

JJ Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:32am

I seem to recall this was a situation that was explained a year or two back at the NCAA meetings - and that if the initial throw did not retire the runner then the ball was dead and the rule enforced. That would indeed return the runner to 1B (with the batter being called out in this case).
Look on the front page of the 2010 NCAA Bulletin (available in PDF on the NCAA Central Hub).
JJ

95 on the test....darned if I can figure which ones I missed. Too bad we have to wait 2 weeks to find out...

DG Fri Feb 03, 2012 09:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 819806)
In the play on the test, R1 is stealing, PU interferes, the ball is thrown into center field, R1 is then thrown out trying for third. So, negating the play would penalize the defense.

Only reason for the play is UI that caused throw into CF. Otherwise runner might be thrown out at 2b or have base stolen. Offense or defense did not err, putting runner back to 1b for UI is fair to all, and appears to me to within rule for all codes.

With runner back on 1b both teams are at same benefit as before the UI and defense has equal opportunity to throw him out if he steals again and offense has equal oppportunity steal.

Steven Tyler Sat Feb 04, 2012 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 819754)
Right, but it doesn't say *when* the ball becomes dead, and the "runner is out if initial throw retires him, otherwise enforce the interference" wording is written *only* for BI.

I sure thought it was the same, but a review (or over-thinking) has me wondering.

I thought in both forms of umpire interference the ball became "immediately" dead. Since it doesn't specify immediate or delayed, I assume dead means dead.

Try stayin' outta the way next time..............;)

bob jenkins Sat Feb 04, 2012 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 820271)
I thought in both forms of umpire interference the ball became "immediately" dead. Since it doesn't specify immediate or delayed, I assume dead means dead.

Try stayin' outta the way next time..............;)

This type of umpire interference is clearly in the "delayed dead" part of the rules book.

Try readin' it next time. ;)

Steven Tyler Sat Feb 04, 2012 08:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 820276)
This type of umpire interference is clearly in the "delayed dead" part of the rules book.

Try readin' it next time. ;)

I replied to your post after reading it. Delayed dead ball in interference situations is limited to one throw by the defense. To appease you I went back, and read the whole thread. I've only seen this situation one time that I can ever remember. The umpire lost his balance, fell over toward the catcher, and no throw was actually made.

bob jenkins Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 820292)
Delayed dead ball in interference situations is limited to one throw by the defense.

NCAA reference (for UI, not for BI), please.

Steven Tyler Mon Feb 06, 2012 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 820307)
NCAA reference (for UI, not for BI), please.

Sorry, I more or less just skimmed thought thread at the time.

I was wrong in thinking all UI was a "immediate" dead ball. I was backtracking to rote memory as to what I saw. I do remember asking way back when a delayed dead ball become dead. To make a long story short, I was told, the ball becomes dead when after the "initial" throw, it doesn't retire a runner. I for the most part was wanting to know because of the situation with multiple runners.

The explanation I got was the throw is the "entire play". It's no use allowing the runner(s) to advance if they are going to be returned to a TOP base. The person doing the explaining advised, "At least that's the way in everything I work". He at the time did some college baseball. I don't recall if he worked NJCCA, NAIA, or NCAA. Whether he was referring to UI/BI at the same time, I don't really remember.

I was under the impression you were looking for a test answer that was wrong. I now know that you were looking for the reference for the answer.

It looks like DG gave the answer, and dash gave the explanation. Sounds logical to me.


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