In the last two weeks we've had two games with similar situations that I'd like to hear some opinions on.

1) R1 coming home, there is a throw to the plate. F2 receives the ball and makes the tag but drops the ball as the tag is being applied... but picks it up quickly. PU is shielded from the drop and rings up R1. F2 (much to dismay of Coach and parents) tells PU "He's safe, I dropped the ball." PU asks him to repeat it, which he does, and PU changes call to safe.

2) BR moving to get away from high inside pitch. Ball nips the bat but hard to tell if it was bat or helmut. PU calls HBP tells BR to take his base. BR tells PU it hit the bat not him. PU changes call to foul tip.

At first I thought these were the best ways to handle the situation, but the more I considered it I became less sure. What if if were the other way around, i.e., 1) F2 says "I didn't drop the ball" when PU thinks he did, and 2) BR says "it hit me not the bat". Would the PU change the calls then?

How should you handle something like this?

In 1959, Walt Disney produced "Moochie of the Little League," in which Moochie the outfielder traps what the umpires rule a catch for the final out of the "championship game," preventing of course the tying and winning runs from scoring in the bottom of the last inning. Moochie, however, confesses to the ump that he in fact did not catch the ball, so the umpires reverse themselves and Moochie's team loses.

Moochie is praised for his honesty, and traditional American values are upheld. Today, I suspect the trial lawyers would soon be involved.

I don't fault Disney, but I don't believe it is dishonest for a player to let the umpire call the play. A player is under no moral obligation to inform the umpire that his call was wrong, as is someone guilty of a crime that someone else has been convicted of.

There is an ump around here who, when he is not sure whether a ball has hit a batter, simply asks the batter, "Did the ball hit you?" It seems to me that his motives may be good, but he should rule on what he saw and NOT start down the road of letting the players call the game, as in a pickup basketball game where you're "on your honor" to call your own fouls.

Sitch 1 - I would make sure that I asked for the ball before making a call to ensure that the tag was made and he had the ball.

If F2 says I dropped the ball I would still call what I saw.


Sitch 2 - I would call what I thought happened. However, I have learned take your time, react to the play, usually a kid that's hit will react a certain way etc., and then make the call.

If I miss it, I miss it, but I'm not changing it.

Now, there have been times in local league I've asked a kid later, did that ball hit you and he would say "no", but that's baseball.

Ain't it fun.

Thanks
David

This one can be tough. If I am working solo, bets get it that a ball beating a runner at a base far-far away , D is gonna have advantage.However, timing is very important, wait and see...I tend to make those calls after all play at that base has ended and players are starting to look away...wondering.
Kid honestly telling me he screwed the pooch...."no, kiddo, you made the play", thats if I screwed the pooch and called it too soon....not very often...I get my angles and plays......cheers

To sit here and tell you what exactly I would have done, or how you are suppose to handle this situation ,is like having me decide who to throw over board my wife or mother, in order to save the ship.

All of this stuff depends on the level of play, importance of game and experience and confidence of the official or officials.

I am not sure, but it does not sound as if these games were HS Varsity, American Legion or even SR. League baseball. Most likely LL. I know, there are those that live in this black and white world that will say, it doesn't matter. Well they can stop reading here.

First of all, I would have had to be there. But most probably I would have handled the calls the same way. Lets all say this over and over, its only a game , its only a game, its only a game. Those players will remember you more for you human side than your officiating abilty. To me thats more important. We were all Human Beings long before we became officials.

Sometimes doing a real good job, is not always by the book.

Thank you
 

When I am in my home league, where I know everyone and everyone knows me, I tend to be less stringent on the "letter of the law" and try to let the kids play without as much interference as possible. In my home league, I probably would have responded the same as the umpire in the post. We need to remember, especially in Little League, why we are there. We are there so the kids can play. Let them play. At more competitive levels, as has been pointed out, we need to be more "professional." Little League, especially during the regular season, is for the kids to have fun and learn baseball. Why, on earth, would the coach and parents be dismayed at a child being honest? That would earn my children a pizza and a coke! Team Sports, at the Little League age level, is to teach the children teamwork, discipline, how that particular sport is played, integrity, and sportsmanship. If the catcher says he dropped the ball and you insist the runner is still out, who looks the fool here? I grant you, it's not the catcher.

Soap Box vacated...

I would never ask a kid anything nor would I listen to him if he offered anything.

I was a handfull when I was a kid. Here is a move I pulled when I played Little League. I got walked alot. I could hit. I also pitched so I didn't get thrown at because everyone knew I would retailiate.

I hated getting walked but would not swing at bad pitches. Anyway, the team we were playing, was pitching to me. I was very happy about this.

Anyway, here comes an inside pitch that I was expecting a curve and I couldn't get out of the way in time. I hit the deck and the ball hits the bill of the helmet as I am going down. UIC calles a HBP Dead Ball and the fans in the stands and the opposing coach starts screaming foul ball. I'm in the dirt and I hear the umpire say, "hey jerry, did that ball hit you? I wanted another swing so I replied "no sir! That hit the bat sir." The umpire reversed himself and 2 pitches later I rocked a 3 run shot and won the game come from behind 6-5. When it's all said and done either Umpires have to call it this or that. They must make the best and most informed decision between them and the other umpires. Human error is a fact in sports today and if you don't see a ball fall then the kid got lucky. That is all. Sometimes, Kids get lucky. Sometimes umpires miss a call. But an umpire should never be fooled into making the wrong call. Or the right call. It is what it is and that is that.

I hate to admit it (not really), but I've called Ground Rule Doubles, Home Runs and vice-versa on more than one occasion. You know the field . . . short 4' fences; no background. Coaches yelling, "You've got to be kidding!" Fans yelling their usual obscenities and optometric comments, etc. And I've had outfielders tell me that the ball actually did go over on the fly . . . after I've already given two bases to the batter. As an umpire, you've gotta live with what you see and call. In the situation given, I'd tell the youngster, "You held it long enough for the tag, son." and be done with it. Or, "If you did, then I blew it, son. I thought you had it."

It's for the very fact that we ARE human, that makes baseball umpires and the game of baseball itself, such an interesting sport. The game is made up of nine innings, tons of pitches, lots of plays, many coaching decisions . . . all of which contribute to the outcome of the game. To say that a particular call changed the course of the game is illogical . . . each call, right or wrong, is what makes the game.

Jerry

AMEN

What about getting the call right?
 

What happened to getting the call right? Obviously, you have to eat some bad calls. Why eat the ones that are obviously wrong that you can change at the Little League level? Besides, the kids are PLAYING A GAME. Or, have you forgotten? Have the umpires now become more important than letting the kids play the game? At the Little League level, an umpire should be a facilitator, at least during the regular season. Remember, we are TEACHING the kids to play the game, among many other positive character traits. Get off your high horse, or you will end up on the wrong end of it.

Criticism and name-calling rarely accomplishes anything, Mr. Striker. And my comments and OPINIONS had nothing to do with being self-righteous or arrogant.

Making a judgement call (whether it was the "right" call or not)is your responsibility. The "teaching" that I proposed is that kid's learn that officials are not always right! Those are the breaks of the game . . . and something that needs to be learned, at all levels. Rookie umpires (or even the experienced ones)also learn from those "mis-judgements", namely to wait longer, see the ball better, watch for the tag, etc. By changing a judgement call based on the statements of a kid doesn't teach anyone anything, except that for that one, single, solitary play . . . we got it "right".

I think you set a bad precendent if you change calls based on what the participants say. Otherwise, who needs an official?

Jerry

Re: What about getting the call right?
 

The words Umpiring and Coaching do not go together in the same breath. (exception is when VERY young kids are involved and the game is NOT competitive in nature but only instructional)

Umpires umpire games and coaches coach it. That is really the point of it isn't it? That is why they are called coaches.

It is the Umpire's RESPONSIBILITY to execute the rules as stated in the rulebook used by the league he is working for, and as interpeted by him. Now things are not always black and white and I understand this.

A kid can learn from both negitive and positive reinforcement you know? He learns when he is sucessful and when he fails. When he is right and when he is wrong. When he wins and when he loses.

This is the way of both LIFE and BASEBALL, and that in my opinion, is what makes baseball so great. When you umpire the sport of baseball, it is your responsibility to adhere to and execute the rules as they read in the rulebook and as you interpete them, period. That is your RESPONSIBILITY.

Last week in a pony game I called, we had a good game going, bottom of the 7th, home team ralleyed 5 runs to tie it 10-10. Had runners on 2nd and 3rd no outs and the pitcher balked. Ask yourself. Would you call it? You HAVE to call it. If you don't, then you should be either coaching or keeping score. It is your RESPONSIBILITY.

Just call the game and don't coach it and you will be a better umpire for it. If you wanna coach then coach. It is a great thing to do and I am sure your league could use a caring coach.

If I was a coach and you were coaching my kids, I would tell you to mind your own business. Think about that!

Advantage - disadvantage
 

Get the calls right and use all the information you can.

If the kid tries to be honest and says the runner should be safe because he dropped the ball, I say let him receive the benefit of being honest (and that benefit is not always to his advantage - as it wasn't in this case). I would ask my partner if he saw the ball dropped. And then independent of his answer probably rule the runner safe... quietly. I might also ask F2 again "Are you sure? Your team is not going to like it."

The pitch is a different story. If the pitch is so poor that the batter is ducking and can't get out of the way... I don't care if it ticked his shoelace, the award for that poor of a pitch is a free trip to 1st.

As for Fairump/Jerry, I wouldn't have asked to begin with and just yelled dead ball and pointed to 1st. But it hit the bat! Really, you were trying to hit that pitch? I would have disagreed with him but might have allowed him to continue batting if he really wanted too. Although in this case his honesty did prove to his advantage it could just as well have become an out and a disadvantage for his team. The immediate decision to let him continue batting was not immediately to his advantage.

The game situation and the level of competition must be included in your decisions... as they are already. Good umpires always incorporate these influences.

Umpires are not robots we are people and must act personable and understanding. Sooner or later the game is going to be over and you will be off the field discussing the game with the parents and fans. You can just robot your way to the car and leave, but not if you want to raise your level of acceptance as an umpire and work bigger games. Relax from the robotic appearance and enjoy the game... everyone else will enjoy it more too. :D

Who said anything about coaching?
 

I never said anything about coaching. And, as much as I would want to say something in a coaching way to a player, I never would. If I see something a player is doing that may lead to a safety violation, I will speak to the coach and let him handle it. However, if they are LEARNING a game, which, in Little League, THEY ARE, we should let them play that way during the regular season. Again, I don't feel I am being arrogant by reminding all of us why we are on the Little League field. It is for the kids. And, if a player feels it is important to bring to my attention that the ball went over the fence on the fly instead of on the bounce, we have a home run. Something so obvious should not be ignored. I have eaten my share of calls and will continue to do so. It is on an extremely rare occasion that I would change a call in this manner.

Let me remind you, I am speaking only of Little League (Majors (11-12)and below), during the regular season. In post-season tournaments and playoffs, the learning time is over and time to get more competitive. Much like school, there is a lesson time and then time for the test. There are no balks at this level, but yes, I would, and do call illegal pitches when I see them, and I also will not hesitate to call a balk in the upper levels.

I umpire kids from 11-18 years old. I expect players above majors, in post-season tournaments, and in playoffs to know how to play the game and be properly coached. I would never change a call in those situations based on input from anyone other than my partner, and then only if I asked them.

You said:

"It is the Umpire's RESPONSIBILITY to execute the rules as stated in the rulebook used by the league he is working for, and as interpeted by him. Now things are not always black and white and I understand this."

I agree! The rulebook states a homerun is a batted ball leaving the park on the fly in fair territory. You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating. Why not change your call? Things are not always black and white, and umpires are not always right. When given an opportunity to not be wrong, you should take it. Nothing in the rule book prevents you from doing that (with the exception of certain calls, "foul" being one of them).

<b>"You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating. Why not change your call?"</b>

Because that's one hell of a slippery slope.

"Why won't you change your call for what I saw, you changed it last time for what they saw."

If you were out of position, and screwed the pooch, take the heat and learn from it. But don't call what you didn't see. If you do, you have to judge who's telling the truth and who isnt' and worse, your making decisions based on someone else's vision.

Umpires stopped taking the fans' word for calls over 100 years ago. Thank God.

My 2 cents...

Get the Call right and call what you See, not what you expect or others tell you.

Bottom line, PAUSE... it sounds like you get too excited. You are not seing the whole play through and are calling it too soon. The younger the level, the more you have to wait. If you have a Close Play when a runner slides, Pause, Breathe, tell the fielder to show you the ball, then make the call (sell it if you have to). When you have the dish, Do you notice you call are calling balls and strikes before the catcher catches the ball. I have seen guys be on the back end of a ball call and then the batter swings. As you move up, pitchers have more movement. You need to see the whole pitch.

Again just my 2 cents. Good luck....

Missing the point
 

Please note:

1. The level of play. Little League majors and below, regular season. Learning baseball.

2. We're not talking a close play here where the umpire was in position and making the call, or even a play at first being called from the C position. We are discussing a very obvious situation that an umpire missed entirely.

On my home field, with intra-league teams, Little League majors and below, in THIS situation (long ball over the fence), I am changing my call.

I still want to know where his partner was....

[Edited by Striker991 on May 16th, 2003 at 12:18 PM]

Mr. Striker:
I certainly appreciate your intensity. However, I do disagree on your point that "Little League" is a teaching league for the kids. Nothing could be further from the truth! YMCA T-Ball is POSSIBLY a teaching league . . . or any league that doesn't keep score; certainly not "Little League". Politics aside . . . my contention is, an umpire is responsible for his/her own calls and actions. If he/she chooses to change a judgement call based on the statements of another player, participant or spectator; that is certainly his/her decision. From a personal standpoint, I feel it is far better for an official to live with their mis-calls (and grab a shovel to dig a hole for themselves)rather than to give in to the temptation of changing their call to suit others. Their credibility is lost much more if folks know they can be persuaded to change their judgement.
Jerry

<b>Please note:

1. The level of play. Little League majors and below, regular season. Learning baseball.</b>

What's your point? That's the level we allow fans and players to make calls?

<b>2. We're not talking a close play here where the umpire was in position and making the call, or even a play at first being called from the C position. We are discussing a very obvious situation that an umpire missed entirely.</b>

So you can justify this is your mind. At what point can't you justify allowing the crowd to overturn a call? Does it have to be unanimous? What if just one person dissents? Ten, Twenty?

Remember, never does everyone agree on anything.

<b>On my home field, with intra-league teams, Little League majors and below, in THIS situation (long ball over the fence), I am changing my call.</b>

And if I was your assignor, it would be your last call for two weeks.

We expect, at all levels, that umpires work by the rules and standards of practice. I wouldn't know when to again trust an umpire who changed his call because of the crowd's opinion.

Garth,
Thank-you! Obviously you (and I!) have been there/done that. It's how you handle adversity that seperates the men from the boys. And our profession is one of the few where you can be "wrong" and still be "right".

We all learn . . . eventually.

Jerry

Let's just make our own meaning
 

Hmmmmm....did I say let the crowd make the decision? No, the umpire obviously didn't see the ball. On what basis did he make his decision? You, yourself have said you can't call what you don't see. He didn't see it. The DEFENSIVE PLAYER, to whom there is no benefit, said the ball went over the fence on the fly.

So, rather than give assignments to someone who gets the call right and prevents a huge uproar, you would rather give the games to someone whose seeing eye dog must have been distracted by a cat and turns the field upside down? I would worry about an umpire that doesn't have the depth perception to tell whether or not a ball, less than 200 feet away (because, of course, the umpire was in position down the line to make the call correctly) bounced in front of a fence or not. If I was the board member on duty at that game, his assignor would have received a call from me...

Still no answer on where the partner was in all of this.....

And, you guys are really good at re-defining statements. First, I was coaching; now, I'm letting the crowd make the call....sheeesh....you guys should run for office.

To Jerry
 

Little League, majors and below, is very much a teaching league. Look at the structure of the rules. Mandatory play, safety restrictions, etc. It is designed to teach the kids baseball, have fun, and do it safely.

And, if I stick with a call as obviously wrong as this one and I know I didn't see it, and I know what the correct call is, my credibility is down the tubes. The coaches and the players, from then on, will assume I'm guessing on the other close calls as well.

And yes, I am intense on this issue, because it revolves around the purpose of the game itself, in Little League and at this level. The reason we have the violence we do is because parents, coaches, and yes, even officials, take the game to mean way more than it really does.

At this level, Little League majors and below, we should be facilitors and teachers, more than umpires and coaches. Let the kids play. Help them learn. Teach them discipline, teamwork, help them build character.

Have a Little League rule book? Read the motto on the back. Then, call the home run. Do the right thing.

Mr. Striker:
Now you're a mind reader?

The "home run/ground rule double" in question was not 200 feet from home plate . . . it was 365 feet in straight away centerfield. My BU was PROPERLY watching the BR touch 1st base and following him around; he had no business watching the fly ball.

As the PU, at the crack of the bat I was off and running following the flight of the ball. (Obviously I can't outrun it). As I'm watching the ball, I (and my dog) am also watching the reactions of the outfielders . . . knowing full well that the fence is 4' high, no background and no cushion atop the chain link fence. As I'm peering into the distance, I also watch the centerfielder hold up his hands (whether by prior instruction or by instinct)to indicate a bounce over. My own sight line, and distance where the ball came to rest over the fence, seems to show that it bounced over. I should also note that I pulled up and stopped so as not to prejudice my vision.

Without hesitation, I called a ground rule double. As a courtesy to the 3rd base coach, I said, "I'll check with my partner . . . but it looked like a bounce to me." My partner confirmed that he was watching the runner. So the call was mine and all mine. If I got it wrong, so be it. I told the coach, "Bruce, you've got a 4' fence, no background; I've got a Double."

We continued playing.

Jerry

Unless I'm mistaken, you said:

<b>"You, for whatever reason, didn't see it (Were you out of position? Where was your partner?). Obviously, the defensive player saw it, and, by your description, so did all the other people on the field and spectating." </b>

Sounds like a crowd to me. You did say the umpire didn't see it but everyone else did. You did say he should change his call because of that.

And yes, I said you can't call what you don't see. Did the umpire see a home run? No. He can't call it. No inconsistency here.

And yes, I will yank assignments from any umpire who uses such poor judgment as to allow the opinion of the crowd, oh, excuse me, I mean the players, spectators and coaches, to change his call. I said, this is a very slippery slope. Once you begin this, where do you stop?

But, you obviously have your mind made up. Far be it for me to attempt to convince you of anything.

Have a wonderful career, and feel free to take the last word. I'm done.

GB

[Edited by GarthB on May 16th, 2003 at 02:52 PM]

"BR tells PU it hit the bat not him. PU changes call to foul tip"

Why?

Bob

Call what you see but ...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry
[B]The "home run/ground rule double" in question was not 200 feet from home plate . . . it was 365 feet in straight away centerfield. My BU was PROPERLY watching the BR touch 1st base and following him around; he had no business watching the fly ball.</b>

I agree that you call only what you as the umpire see as I stated before,

but if a ball is hit <b>365 feet to straight away center then the BU should be out there watching the play.</b>

The PU can watch the runner touch the bases.

BU has a much better angle for the play and he's a lot closer.

This is a trouble ball and with two umpires working together can be covered fairly easily.

But, BU may not know for sure either and he's got to go with what he saw.

Similiar to a HR hit right down the line but curving badly into foul territory etc., everyone wants the HR, only PU can make the decision though if its fair or foul.

Thanks
David

another angle
 

I have another thought on this situation. The bottom line is that the game should be called in such a way as to be as fair as possible to everyone. Therefore, it is unfair to the team with the honest kid on it to change the call because, I promise you, there is another team in this league that has a player that, in the same situation, is not going to confess that he dropped the ball, or whatever.

Re: Call what you see but ...
 

"but if a ball is hit 365 feet to straight away center then the BU should be out there watching the play"

David,
In a 2-Man System, with BU in the A-Position, the Plate takes all fly balls from 2nd base to the left field stands. Once my partner sees that I'm heading to watch the flight of the ball, he needs to watch the BR. If my partner had turned to watch the ball instead, then you're correct; I would have been following the Batter/Runner.

That wasn't the point of this discussion though. It had to do with an official reversing his call based on the statements of a player versus what the umpire perceived.

Jerry

This is not right.

Technically, the plate umpire takes all fly balls when the base umpire doesn't go out.

And your guideline for going out is not right either. Second base has nothing to do with it -- any ball taking the centerfielder to his right should belong to the plate umpire. Any ball bringing the centerfielder straight in or to his left AND any ball to the left of it can belong to the BU, but only if he goes out.

If the BU umpire goes out, though, REGARDLESS of the location of the ball, he has the ball and the PU must come up and take the runner around.

Rich

Re: Re: Call what you see but ...
 

A fly ball hit 365 feet with potential to be caught or bounce over the fence then BU should be covering it.

Unless the CF is moving in or toward left field.

As you said, this thread was over calling what is perceived,

if the BU goes out (and he should since this is a trouble ball) then there is no perceiving,

he knows for a fact if the ball is caught or if it bounces over the fence.

Thats just good umpiring and why they pay us the big bucks.

That's what I was trying to say.

Thanks
David

Rich,
Not to be nit-picky or to play "word games", but I believe we both have the same mechanics in mind; phrased a bit different is all. If you "read between the lines" of my reply to Dave, you'd see that the PU does take all fly balls unless the BU goes out. The BU (from the A-Position)would/should rarely if ever go out if the Centerfielder is stationed straight away (behind 2nd base) and left field.

In the situation of the home run/ground rule double, as the PU I realized immediately that the fly ball was heading in the direction of the Centerfielder and at an angle for which I was responsible . . . and that my partner was not going out.

Dave had asked why the BU didn't go out. That was the reason for the reply. In all honesty, it wouldn't have made any difference as to why he didn't go out. I would have had to make a call in any case. In this instance, I already knew where my partner was and what he was doing . . . watching the runner. Likewise, he already knew where I was . . . because we had covered it in our pre-game. It was for that very reason we had no difficulty in "selling" the ground rule double to the irate coach; because HE (the coach) knew that both of the officials were doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing.

God bless.

Jerry

The real crux of this issue is do you allow input from other sources than your own immediate senses. Many times I've seen it happen, and I've done it myself, the umpire is out of position, is inattentive, or simply gets caught where they cannot possibly see the necessary components of the play. Their call comes out wrong for what happened. One coach gets emphatically excited that you missed the call, you missed the call, you missed the call, you missed the call. And the umpire resolutely stands by his misposition, his inattentiveness, or the fact that he just couldn't see what happened and sticks to his call. To show just how absolutely infallible he is, he ejects the coach - that has already been wronged once with the original bad call.

Now all is better?

Gentlemen, I contend that this is old school - that you absolutely must ONLY rely upon your sight and your sound senses. That your call is absolutely correct and unquestionable. Anyone who challenges your call shall be ejected... and the ejected father/coach returns to the parking lot with his .22 to shoot you after the game is over. It has happened.

Yes, it is a slippery slope. If you are out of position or inattentive and you make a bad call... dig a hole because you are going deep.

The best solution is to always be on your toes and ready to make the unexpected call. Rare are the times when a call needs to be made in a hurry... so be patient. And allow all of your senses and all of your awareness and attentiveness to aid you in making your judgement. If you do this you shouldn't need to change any calls. You will be able to collect all the input and discard what is not useable. That discard may very well be the player's input that says "Na, he should be safe; I dropped the ball." "Well Son, I appreciate your honesty, but I've already sold this call and I'm going to have to live with it. The runner is out."

Very, very rare/unusual are the times when a player has come to me with information that worsens their own situation. In over 20 years of officiating baseball and softball, I would guess that this situation has not happened to me 3 times - I honestly cannot clearly remember any. And yet this discussion has turned this point of minutia into game reassignments, mind reading, coaching, disparaging remarks, etc.

It was all hypothetical to begin with - the calls have already been made, the plays are over, it is weeks later.

My recommendation is to work diligently to be in the necessary position and be patient enough to allow all of your senses to supply input to your decision. If I were working a Little League game and it's the bottom of the last inning, with the visitors ahead 15-0, two outs, and the 8-year old catcher stands up and says, "Na, he should be safe; I dropped the ball." "Really! Okay, the score is 15-1. Let's get us another out."

This business of lying by ommission is not one of the most endearing qualities of our society - praise be to the 8-year old, and anyone else, that will be honest when it creates a disadvantage for themselves.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on May 20th, 2003 at 09:36 AM]